Bike Race Numbers

[jetfixer15]

Having talked to the Cheif Scorer last year and seen it for myself when I was in the tower, many bikes last year had numbers on them that did not conform to the EMRA rules, and were impossible to read. If the lap timing/scoring system went down and manual scoring was required, racers with illegible numbers might not be scored. In addition, identifying a racer for safety reasons (like a black flag) is more difficult for the track workers. I would like to see this rule enforced for next year to make bike identification easier for the track workers and spectators. If I race next year I will bring masking tape, a can of white spray paint to the track and will paint on white backgrounds for you. I don't know how much the standard dirt bike numbers cost to buy but they are the easiest solution and conform to the size rerquirements. Many bikes have small or split frontal areas, so some adjustments may have to be made.

EMRA rulebook:

Race numbers should be large (8” or more, 1” wide, & 1” white stroke) and clear for the purpose of lap scoring.
Number plates should be:
•Novice - Red number on white background
•Intermediate - Red number on white background
•Expert - Black number on white background

[Spooner]

I will bring masking tape, a can of white spray paint to the track and will paint on white backgrounds for you.

So your going to start painting peoples bikes? That will go over well.

I don't know how much the standard dirt bike numbers cost to buy but they are the easiest solution and conform to the size rerquirements.

Most sizes are 5 to six inches. Most cost around $5.00 to $8.00 each per number.

Many bikes have small or split frontal areas, so some adjustments may have to be made.

Suggestions???

Also, what constitutes a white background? Eg. How large?


But, if there was any issues with #'s Jon W. or Tinker (sorry don't know his real name) would let the guilty party know about it. I seen and been part of this, when I had busted up fairings with taped on numbers.

So the real question is, who are you trying to railroad?

~S

[YZF1000jon]

I don't think he was trying to railroad anyone, but it's something we can look at being a bit more vigilant about. It can be added to the adjustments made at tech that will include a kill switch check, as there were some out there last year that were still difficult to read. Let's hope the timing system works better than ever, the main concern then is for ID and safety reasons.

[Planepower]

I think the kill switch 'check' is pointless....if its there, great. i dont want to start up my bike just to have it shut down immediatley...and some of the 2-stroke racers - their bikes do not have idle circuits or starters...its a pointless 'check'...if its there, ask if it works.
Whats next...going to do a compression check to make sure engine isnt going to blow up on the track? Sometimes we HAVE to leave the details to the owner? do we start checking torques on frame sliders? handlebar bolts? brake lever pivots?

The numbers debate can be sorted out at tech - as the rules state.

[Thorsten]

Being retired from the EMRA I suppose I don't have a lot of credibility, but I wanted to comment anyway, so there! ;)

I have to say from a spectator's perspective that I found the increasingly loose application of race numbers quite frustrating over the last couple of seasons. It was often impossible to identify a rider, which takes away from the enjoyment of watching the races. Also, having illegible, presumably artfully distorted looking numbers plastered all over the bike (like having a single number on top of the seat hump upside down towards the stands) may be celebrated as an expression of individualism, but could also be seen as a level of sloppiness that might lead one to wonder if it reflects the level of bike and rider preparation. Perception is everything.

If I was still on the Exec, enforcing numbering rules would have been on my agenda for next season, because I also agree with the scoring and safety arguments made by others earlier. I think there is merit to the EMRA wanting to be seen to run a professional event. We have always prided ourselves on this.

As to the kill switch test, I have to strongly support having it done at tech. This is potentially a life and limb issue, not only for a downed rider, but also for the corner marshals. They must be able to shut off a bike to reduce the risk of fire, for example. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask someone on a two stroke GP bike to push start the thing and to shut it down with the kill switch. If I have to blame myself for any shortcomings when I was doing tech, it is that I didn't check the function of the kill switches often enough.

Cheers,
Thorsten

[YZF1000jon]

Being retired from the EMRA I suppose I don't have a lot of credibility, but I wanted to comment anyway, so there! ;)

Cheers,
Thorsten

Your credibility is underestimated, oh wise one!:D
Did you have a physical checklist to tick off at tech? or was it a memorized one.

[fast316]

I don't remember this being too big of a problem. I remember getting some riders to fix their numbers, change the color, make them clearer, they were usually pretty good about it, most riders were just unaware it was hard to see. Some bikes like the 1000rr and 600rr just don't have much room for numbers on the tail section. It is something to keep in mind, and bring up to the guys in charge of tech, have them enforce the rules some more.

[Thorsten]

Did you have a physical checklist to tick off at tech? or was it a memorized one.

Well, many years ago I put together a check list. It's weird, I found it yesterday somewhere on the EMRA site, but today I can't. Early onset dementia???:eek:

Anyhoo, in the old days a competitor was handed the check list as proof of registration and I only teched a bike when the rider handed over the sheet. In an ideal world, the rider could use it as a guide to checking over the bike, and I would have checked things off that needed fixing at tech. In reality it rarely happened that way because the Saturday morning rush just doesn't allow for it. I developed a mental routine looking at what I considered the most important safety features to check, both on the bike and rider equipment. And I picked one or two additional things on the list each race weekend to look for.:cool:

Okay, back to trying to find the bloody thing...:confused:

Cheers,
TD

[YZF1000jon]

:

, in the old days a competitor was handed the check list as proof of registration and I only teched a bike when the rider handed over the sheet.
TD
With the new registration system this could be easier than before and also help speed up tech in the mornings as other exec can step in and help (huge thanks to those who have been doing just that in the past) as well. If you find the form could you lead me to it?

Found it, under club information see downloadable forms. :) We will be revising it to reflect new rule changes currently being voted upon.

[Thorsten]

Well done, Jon! For some reason the pull down menu doesn't show up at work...:rolleyes:

Yes, when you update the form, you might as well add the kill switch, which is ironically not on there. That's probably why I didn't pay more attention to it...

Cheers,
TD

[Dean]

In the WMRC, we just went through this at our rules book committee meeting, and this year, we will be enforcing the numbers quite a bit more strictly. We have vendors on site that have white vinyl backgrounds as well as numbers. I believe that numbers go for $5 per pack of 3 of the same numbers.

Our resolution to the tail sections being quite small on some bodywork is that if the tail is too small for proper numbers with at least 1" of white around each number, then you MUST mount your numbers on your side fairings. Our tech will be checking very closely for numbering. At least we will not leave you out in the cold as our vendors will have materials you can purchase to rectify the situation. Non-compliance with our numbering rules, much the same as what Aaron stated above, will result in the rider not being able to race with no refunds.

Our backup scorers, safety workers, and announcing tower as well as spectators have demanded we do something about this, so that was our answer this year.

[oldskool]

First of all I understand if the numbers are completely un-readable or 1 inch by 1 inch.

On the other hand there is quite a bit of concern over something relitively minor. 90% of the time the timing system works, heaven forbid someone has to struggle, maybe even squint their eyes, to make out a number once in awhile (on one or two machines). How hard can it be to resort to 'the black bike with the red leathers' every once in awhile? It's not like we all look the same out there (I've been there taking pictures and each bike and rider are very distinctive). We don't all ride the same bike, rarely if ever there are more than a couple of the same year, same style bike on the track (let alone the same color) at once and it's not like we cater to riders from all over the Canada and the US, it's always the same guys with exception of one or two 'out of towners'. Seriously stop fretting and getting all anal at the 'club level' peeps.

[YZF1000jon]

There is a minimum size and background required by the rulebook, starting with bringing everyone up to that will make a big difference. Squinting to make out a number on "one or two machines" is not the point of the rule. When 20 bikes come out of corner 9 together and your number can't be read by the 2 volunteers (who don't care what colour your bike and pretty matching leathers are) that are backup for the timing system that included you in the 10% missed, any contingency money (or placement cash for the endurance race) goes to someone else. This is reason enough to make sure numbers are sufficiently readable, let alone any safety, flagging, or incident identification. It's a simple rule with more than enough reasons to be in place, and a minor cost to fix.

[Dean]

Well said Jon!

[Backmarker]

Has it been determined who is being railroaded yet?? That's all I wanna know ;)

[jetfixer15]

Since I started this thread and it seems to have gone a bit awry, let me clarify what I began.

I simply wanted to see the rule applied to every racer to make it easier for our volunteers, as they are essential to club race day operation and anything we as racers can do to make things easier for them should be done. It also makes it easier for spectators to identify bikes by number as fans associate numbers with riders, like 46 for Rossi, 21 for Bayliss, 17 for Duhamel, etc.

I am not trying to railroad anyone. Those who actualy know me understand I am not that type of person at all. My comment about painting number backgrounds was an offer to do it for free for anyone who wasn't able to paint one on or who ran out of time to do so. I was putting out an offer to help other racers, especially the new ones who look for and need help. This keeps them involved in our sport and builds the sense of community we have in the pits and with each other.

If for some reason you have issues with what I have said or anyone else regarding this topic I invite you to come and talk to me at the bike show on 15 Jan (Friday) after 5pm. I will be more than happy to hear what you have to say as exchanges of ideas is how the best solutions arise. I appreaciate everyones input into this topic thread. Please understand that my only intentions are to make things better for our club and easier for all involved, racers, volunteers, officials and fans.

[Dean]

LOL, Oldskool! I think we'd get along quite well. I was at the back of the class, with a full blonde and sometimes black tipped mohawk. I was regional champion for a few track and field events, so I wasn't really picked last.

However, having worked for my club, the WMRC for about 6 years now, I've held jobs in the announcing tower, been promotions director, and worked the corners as a safety worker. I've also been the sounding board for many fans that come to watch racing. All of them want to see bigger numbers. Our corner workers, regarded as some of the best in North America (and I'm not kidding about that! Dorna and FIM always request them for events in the USA) have made this their chief complaint. They do this stuff for us for free, so we pretty much comply with what they say. We don't really get to race without them, so we do as they ask within reason. This one request was very reasonable.

The whole point being is that this is one of the simplest rules to comply to, with resources readily at any track to make it easy for just a few dollars if you are not compliant. We don't even get more money, so it's not a cash grab on our part.

I say, if you want to stand out, don't do it with small stylized numbers and fancy paint jobs. Do it by winning races or having fun, or both.

[oldskool]

I say, if you want to stand out, don't do it with small stylized numbers and fancy paint jobs. Do it by winning races or having fun, or both.

What can I say? .........I like a little show with my go.

[Backmarker]

Has it been determined who is being railroaded yet?? That's all I wanna know ;)

My comments were in jest of course to earlier references...

Does this mean that I will fail tech when I show up with my fancy chrome numbers though????


On a more serious note though, I can understand the concern with the numbers. Some bikes have numbers that are hard to read in the pits. I'm all for correcting this but I'm not sure alot of us can find the room for 8" numbers.

[Planepower]

On a more serious note though, I can understand the concern with the numbers. Some bikes have numbers that are hard to read in the pits. I'm all for correcting this but I'm not sure alot of us can find the room for 8" numbers.

I know for a fact i bought 8" numbers, but they had to be trimmed on some edges so they would fit on my fairing and not dangle in the air - i dont think 8" numbers are practical anymore with factory fairings these days - unless we need to go back to the late '80's & 90's fairings.
Placing them on the front fairings is an option, but some of them are shaped and sculted so as numbers may also be unreadable.

Perhaps not being so 'anal' about size and focusing on legiblility is more realistic.

[Backmarker]

I know for a fact i bought 8" numbers, but they had to be trimmed on some edges so they would fit on my fairing and not dangle in the air - i dont think 8" numbers are practical anymore with factory fairings these days - unless we need to go back to the late '80's & 90's fairings.
Placing them on the front fairings is an option, but some of them are shaped and sculted so as numbers may also be unreadable.

Perhaps not being so 'anal' about size and focusing on legiblility is more realistic.

I don't think anyone is being anal really. Jusy trying to improve things so it makes the volunteers jobs easier. I agree 100% on legibility being a more realistic target. :)

[Fireman]

There are rules in place for this. Making numbers big enough for the tower workers to read is important and will be enforced through tech.

If your bike does not meet the requirements outlined in the rulebook you will not be allowed onto the racetrack until it has been fixed.

These are the rules. They are in place for a reason. Arguing about it is just silly.

[Planepower]

Isnt this the reason of this thread topic to discuss rules and change them?
Isnt this the purpose of a membership to discuss and propose rules, or is it an executive only area - if so, then whatever YOU say goes.

[Fireman]

Heiko, you now me better than that. My Point is that there are rules in place that make our club work properly. Discussing the rules on the forum is fantastic. Name calling is not discussion however.

Their are still number plates on MotoGP, WSB, and AMA bikes even though they have smaller fairings as well. They are large enough for scoring. http://www.nofenders.net/uploaded_images/Ben-Spies---Yamaha-R1-736610.jpg

But if you do not like the current working of the rules and would like a change, please take a active role in doing so.

[Planepower]

Im sorry, i did not mean to name call...
Your post seemed rather matter-of-factly...as in discussion finished.
in the end, it does come down to an active membership, and if a small percentage of the membership participate, then the rules are addressed appropriately.
Ive spent may years in various postions in club llevel executive committees - the internet and forums are a great way to get input from people you rarely hear from (better than monthly newsletters and meeting minutes).
The only point i was trying to make is 'legibilty'..and if that means artistic interpretation, then rules as stated MUST be followed. 8 inches are the standard, then 7 3/4" are out. Do we want to burden tech inspectors to tape measures and long drawn out checksheets? (belive me i know what checksheets are - aviation is full of them, and i can generate enough paperwork to drown an auditor).

rant over...

No disrespect intended

[Fireman]

Im sorry, i did not mean to name call...
Your post seemed rather matter-of-factly...as in discussion finished.
in the end, it does come down to an active membership, and if a small percentage of the membership participate, then the rules are addressed appropriately.
Ive spent may years in various postions in club llevel executive committees - the internet and forums are a great way to get input from people you rarely hear from (better than monthly newsletters and meeting minutes).
The only point i was trying to make is 'legibilty'..and if that means artistic interpretation, then rules as stated MUST be followed. 8 inches are the standard, then 7 3/4" are out. Do we want to burden tech inspectors to tape measures and long drawn out checksheets? (belive me i know what checksheets are - aviation is full of them, and i can generate enough paperwork to drown an auditor).

rant over...

No disrespect intended


The rule book is matter of fact. There is room for interpretation but it is clear and to the point. Really, how many people have actually been told to change thier number sizes?

The club has been around since before you or I were racing with it. The club rulebooks that were used to develop the EMRA's were around before that.

We aren't changing the world here with this discussion. It has been talked about many times before. And what we have is the result of all of those conversations.

[Planepower]

Ack! - ive made myself look like an idiot (hoof in mouth syndrome)

[Fireman]

Not at all. Like you said, discussion on the subject is good as long as it is focused. My problem is that I have ADHD when I try and discuss anything on a internet forum.

Now with that said, I like the way that alot of the WSB teams are putting the numbers on the bellypan and a single large number on the tail section. It is large enough to read from the tower on the tail and can be seen at lean angle (or on it's side) by the corner workers.

[Spooner]

The rule book is matter of fact. There is room for interpretation but it is clear and to the point.

That being said. Are #'s like you had on the triple still be acceptable, providing they're the right size? Also, are #'s required on both sides of the tail section? :confused:

how many people have actually been told to change their number sizes?

Apparently enough to start this thread? ;)

~S

[Fireman]

If you read the original post Scott, you will notice it was started by someone concerned about the size, not someone who was told to change the size.

If your tail section is to small to accomidate a number of proper proportions, then the single number is the only choice, however to date I think thet there are only 2-3 bikes that are competeing that would require something like this.

For example my triple from 07-08. It had a TINY tailsection and those numbers were deemed appropriate in size for Mission and in Edmonton. In Mission you will be required to have a white background for your numbers however.

Are you having troubles fitting numbers on the GSXR scott? If this is a really big concern lets deal with it as a club. Draw up a proposal on what you think would be appropriate for number size/font/and placement, with safety, and volunteers in mind. You can post it here, send it to me, or Ian. We will hand it over to the group of people looking at the 2010 rulebook changes.

[Spooner]

If you read the original post Scott, you will notice it was started by someone concerned about the size, not someone who was told to change the size.

If your tail section is to small to accomidate a number of proper proportions, then the single number is the only choice, however to date I think thet there are only 2-3 bikes that are competeing that would require something like this.

For example my triple from 07-08. It had a TINY tailsection and those numbers were deemed appropriate in size for Mission and in Edmonton. In Mission you will be required to have a white background for your numbers however.

Are you having troubles fitting numbers on the GSXR scott? If this is a really big concern lets deal with it as a club. Draw up a proposal on what you think would be appropriate for number size/font/and placement, with safety, and volunteers in mind. You can post it here, send it to me, or Ian. We will hand it over to the group of people looking at the 2010 rulebook changes.

I have and did read the first post... I'm still waiting for answers, if there available.
Also, what constitutes a white background? Eg. How large?

Above is the main question i would like to get answered. I really don't care about the number sizes. As a GSXR could probably put 12" numbers if needed.

Reason I'm asking about your old Triumph is that bike never really had a white background, as the bike was/is black. You just had a white surround showing your number. I think it looks slick and fit the "visibility" status quite well.

I am hoping to emulate that on my bike for next season. Only in red for my intermediate status. I'd like to know if this will still be accepted, or if the numbers have to be on a number plate? Hence why I've singled out your old bike.

As for the back, I should have read the rules before asking the question. Again I was asking the question for style points, thats it. I have no problems putting numbers on both sides.

I do apologize for my original first post. i was coming across as quite a brash; must of been a off evg. Sorry.

~S

[Fireman]

I have and did read the first post... I'm still waiting for answers, if there available.


Above is the main question i would like to get answered. I really don't care about the number sizes. As a GSXR could probably put 12" numbers if needed.

Reason I'm asking about your old Triumph is that bike never really had a white background, as the bike was/is black. You just had a white surround showing your number. I think it looks slick and fit the "visibility" status quite well.

I am hoping to emulate that on my bike for next season. Only in red for my intermediate status. I'd like to know if this will still be accepted, or if the numbers have to be on a number plate? Hence why I've singled out your old bike.

As for the back, I should have read the rules before asking the question. Again I was asking the question for style points, thats it. I have no problems putting numbers on both sides.

I do apologize for my original first post. i was coming across as quite a brash; must of been a off evg. Sorry.

~S

No Problem Scott. I have never had, nor have I heard of any problems in the EMRA with a 1" white border around the number. Let common sense be your guide. If it looks like it will be difficult to see at 100' and 100MPH, it probably is and thus someone will be forced to ask you to change it before you can compete.

Now once again, if you choose to race in another club, the white background will be necessary to pass tech.

Here is what I am currently using and it is acceptable in the EMRA, CMRA, & WMRC.

[YZF1000jon]

The first post of this thread quotes the rulebook and shows that a 1" white border is acceptable. Personally I think it makes the numbers jump out more than a white background, but either way is good as long as it's readable from the tower or corners.

[Fireman]

The first post of this thread quotes the rulebook and shows that a 1" white border is acceptable. Personally I think it makes the numbers jump out more than a white background, but either way is good as long as it's readable from the tower or corners.

I have never found that it was any worse than a white background either, However other clubs make it mandatory to ave the background.

So remember folks, if you plan on doing any of the WCC rounds, keep the white background or you will need to buy some white duct tape and make a background ala 2008 >>>>

[Spooner]

^ I like it :)

[Tinker]

Just to throw in my usually worthless $.02.

Tech made mention of inappropriate numbering on several occasions to riders with hastily applied colored duct tape numbers or red electrical tape numbers, but we never forbade them from going on the track, we would just warn them that if we got a complaint from the tower about their numbers, they WOULD have to change them. Those complaints did come too, on several occasions, and Jon would radio down and ask us to give the offending rider a heads up. It was a system that seemed to work for us at the time, but enforcing a minimum standard would be infinitely more plausable if we had a vendor on site that actually carried the appropriate numbers (in both black and red) instead of just shrugging our shoulders when asked where to get the correct style numbers. This is a great discussion and it has given rise to another question in my head. I know that the expert bikes require black numbers, but in some cases the numbers were painted on in a color matching the dark color of the bike (IE dark blue) to get more style points from the West German judge I'm sure. Would it be a no-go situation for that scenario?

As for the Tech 'checklist'? I think it would be a good idea as a reminder of what will be checked at Tech, but if it is expected that the Tech marshals will carry a checklist around each bike on a Saturday morning when there are bikes lined up down the paddock, I don't anticipate this as being helpful to the cause. On the other hand, having a billboard about 2ft wide by 4ft tall that could be displayed in a conspicuous place under the tent (on the fence maybe?) would be a good way to re-enforce our requests for further maintenance on the bike. It simply makes the rules interpretations more black and white and there would be less questioning of the request (they don't make us do that for a WERA race!). But after doing a couple hundred inspections, there would be no need for a checklist for the inspectors. My method and the method I taught Dave was to start at a point on the bike and do a lap around it, in my case I would start at the right side of the front wheel and work backwards around the bike and back up the left side to the front again. It quickly becomes routine and in my case I would physically touch the more important items as a way of ticking it off on my mental checklist. Even in cases where the bike didn't pass Tech because of some issue that was overlooked, we would make a judgement call on whether we required the bike to return for a re-tech or just leave it to the rider to fix the problem on an honor basis (which I would usually end up checking anyways when they went out for first practice hehe) and our judgement was usually swayed by the level of preparation (let's face it, it's easy to see which bike was prepped maticulously and which was tossed together over a case of beer) and the perceived honesty of the rider.

As for the kill switch issue, I think it is a good idea to mandate a check. I know it could be seen as an inconveniance by the GP riders who need to do more than push a button to start the bike, but if I'm a corner worker running towards a downed rider and his bike is peeing out fuel with a stuck throttle singing along at about 12k, I think I might find it convenient to be able to hit a kill switch that has been tested.

Just my $.02

On another note, I have seen and heard many thanks for the volunteers and the work they put in, but the thanks need to be expressed in both directions. It has been my experience that 99% or more of the riders and their pit crews have been more than pleasant and cheerful to deal with and in most cases they were genuinely thankful when we pointed out something that was missed in the preparation because these checks are done to ensure the safety of both them and their fellow racers. I was also very impressed when they would just stand quietly beside their 'steeds' waiting for us to muck our way through the dozen or so riders ahead of them and I would also like to thank those folks for their amazing patience.

This is also a good time to publicly thank people like Dave Sushynski and Juan and Everett and Norm and Justin and a select few others whose names escape me at the moment (at my age, I'm usually more happy to remember anything than I am dissappointed for forgetting something). If it weren't for their generosity with their time and their helpful nature, heaven knows I'd probably still be standing under that tent slogging through inspections. MUCH thanks to everyone for making our life pleasant and it is because of people like you that it is easy to raise the hand when volunteers are called for.

[YZF1000jon]

As for the Tech 'checklist'? I think it would be a good idea as a reminder of what will be checked at Tech, but if it is expected that the Tech marshals will carry a checklist around each bike on a Saturday morning when there are bikes lined up down the paddock, I don't anticipate this as being helpful to the cause..
The checklist would printed up on the back of the registration sheet the riders are given and the inspector just ticks off the appropriate category as it's checked. It's more of a liability and consistency thing, as if something happens there's a paper trail showing due diligence. That, and the riders get a heads up on what exactly will be scrutinized, and what needs to be fixed before being allowed onto the track. This way we can also have people like Juan and Norm step in and still have the same tech requirements. This will be important, from what I hear you're throwing your name on the Grid this year, and Dave's no longer with us, so new inspectors will have to be trained.

[Tinker]

I will still be around to help out with the early morning rush on every weekend, I just won't be able to babysit the tent all day like before. Yes, I would like to try life on the other side of the wall for a bit, but I will need somebody to teach me the "Anti-gravel dance" before I venture out. haha