Which Tire Warmers?

[Ducbert]

Single Temp warmers good enough or are the more expensive digital multi temp ones required?

[racer51]

Single Temp warmers good enough or are the more expensive digital multi temp ones required?

Ye$ :D It's all about the benjamins...how many you got to spare?

[John Bickle]

I can probably help answer that,
If you are setting hot tire pressures then the programmable model is going to help you.
But understand you need to take the hot tire pressure and temperature as soon as you come off the track.So you need a good probe pyrometer and a good tire gauge with fine increments.
Plus you need help to do this as you ,the rider won't be able to.
If you just set cold tire pressures as the mfg'er specs then the single temp is fine. All tires specs will run around the 78 Celsius. If you are getting wear that is abnormal it isn't usually the warmer but the pressure, unless the warmer isn't hot enough. So check with your vendor as to what you should do.
With the weather we get here in Canada, you traditionally need the warmer settings anyway.
For example at Shannonville with Szokes bike we lost 11 C between the tent and pit lane. It was a 35 C day but a north breeze.
So in most cases buy a warmer with good insulation as it is a must up here [and even more important in your guys neck of the woods]. Most people only need the standard model. The factory teams this year we deal with are reverting back to the standard models. They are less finicky and have a longer life.[and cheaper]
That being said if you do need the programmable,,,, they can't be made cheap. A standard model is more consistant, regardless of make. The programmables are very hard to design with readings that are relavant.
I would recommend getting the standard design of what ever make.Then looking into some form of cover to help the warmer in colder weather.That will help most more then the digital tools.
BUt if you think you need the digital I'd certainly have a set for you!;)
Basically if you use the adjustability it's great,, if you don't you just wasted money on a tool that sits in your drawer.
I don't want to turn this into an info-mercial so if anybody has questions I'll try to pop back here and answer them as best I can or contact me at
bickleracing@sympatico.ca

Thanks, John

[JDS]

^ Thanx for that info.

[Ducbert]

Wow, thank you very much!! :D

[oldskool]

if you've got the dough.....

http://kls.de/english/tw/twmoto/stufftwmoto/frame_twmoto.htm

[racer51]

Coolio...just the thought that a "pro" like John Bickle is reading our forum is encouraging.

Welcome John! Please share any tire knowledge you have time for.

What's your view on nitrogen vs. air?

[John Bickle]

Coolio...just the thought that a "pro" like John Bickle is reading our forum is encouraging.

Welcome John! Please share any tire knowledge you have time for.

What's your view on nitrogen vs. air?

Well, assuming you completely purged the tire and had 100% Nitogen then you would only have to get the pressure right once!! But what if you get the wrong pressure? What if the track has no Nitrogen and all year you have been using it? Now what would you do.
Personally, it's something that leads you to believe your life will get simplier. Well,, creates too much dependacy on someone else.
Unless you install and purge your own tires with your own Nitrogen I wouldn't recommend it.
You can make this sport as complex and as expensive as you want.
I really can't see how Nitrogen will make most guys quicker. A good tire probe pyrometer,, good pressure gauge used as soon as you come off the track will teach you tons.
Good warmers which heat soak the tires well, with a good pressure gauge and a good tire pyrometer is what will teach you more and should give you tools to adjust your set-up to go quicker. Nitrogen,, once it's inside the rim,,, doesn't tell you anything,, you still need to understand how to set up around it. And most guys quit on it half way or sooner through the year,,cause they didn't get quicker. So now they need to start again. But if you have these tools and have a good set-up and have documented how air reacts,, all relating to wear/grip on your tires. Then maybe it will help.
But you really need to create the plateform for the benefits of Nitrogen. Don't get Nitrogen and then establish the program.
MHO
And I've been lurking here for some time now,,,,

John

[MyTTwin]

Wow, great to see John Bickle on our forum...

Ducbert, I would suggest the standard Bickle racing warmers available at Bickleracing.com I'll be enjoying mine this year :-)

[YZF1000jon]

I just rely on the extra grip I have on my seat when I use my old michelin H2 take-offs and don't own tire warmers at all. Sphincter muscles can be stronger than gravity, honest.

[John Bickle]

I just rely on the extra grip I have on my seat when I use my old michelin H2 take-offs and don't own tire warmers at all. Sphincter muscles can be stronger than gravity, honest.

What most people don't realize is how much tire you waste with out warmers.
So here's what most do,, two laps nice and easy to warm the tire up and then hammer it! In a race they try to work the tire on the warm up lap.
Well the fact is you need 45 minutes to heat soak a tire at 20 C ambient air temp. So assuming a lap is 1.5 minutes ? There is no way you can heat soak a tire in 3 minutes. So what happens is,, you do your 2 laps and the outside of the carcass is soft/warm. The inside is still very cold. So the soft rubbber starts to ripp from the hard carcass. Cold Tearing. The last few laps you get the tire heat soaked and the tire cleans up. You come in and the tire looks great. So all is good,,you think!
Well you have unnecessarily wasted a lot of rubber. So that is how tire warmers will save you money. Plus,, there is no way you can even attempt suspension changes at the upper end of the scale if you are not on warmers. The tire today have such soft side walls they have to be hot to give you the proper feedback. Going back a few posts to setting hot tire pressures. The pressure dictates the rigidity/stiffness of the side wall.
So your poor suspension guy could be chasing his tail.

Now, cold days under 15 C. Out here in Ontario, Shannonville you will loose heat. So if you go out at 70 C you will have five lap and be down around 55 C. It will level off around 45-55 C depending the rider. Calabogie the temp is 10 C and it will maintain 60 C.
So depending on your ashphalt,, if you have no warmers you start at 15 C ambient air. It is much harder for the rider with no warmers to get to 30-40 C with out warmers. So although 50-60 C is not optimal operating temp,,, it is way better and safer then 30-40 C at best.

So warmers ,, although its another thing to add to the program,,,just make things work better and are safer. Not to mention increase the life of tires.


John

[Planepower]

Well said!
Tires lasting longer are the arguing factor as to why i use tire warmers, i am no where near at the level that John is describing - but at $400+/set of tires, that is the most expensive component to racing...take care of your tires and racing wont eat up your mortgage.

[Fireman]

What most people don't realize is how much tire you waste with out warmers.
So here's what most do,, two laps nice and easy to warm the tire up and then hammer it! In a race they try to work the tire on the warm up lap.
Well the fact is you need 45 minutes to heat soak a tire at 20 C ambient air temp. So assuming a lap is 1.5 minutes ? There is no way you can heat soak a tire in 3 minutes. So what happens is,, you do your 2 laps and the outside of the carcass is soft/warm. The inside is still very cold. So the soft rubbber starts to ripp from the hard carcass. Cold Tearing. The last few laps you get the tire heat soaked and the tire cleans up. You come in and the tire looks great. So all is good,,you think!
Well you have unnecessarily wasted a lot of rubber. So that is how tire warmers will save you money. Plus,, there is no way you can even attempt suspension changes at the upper end of the scale if you are not on warmers. The tire today have such soft side walls they have to be hot to give you the proper feedback. Going back a few posts to setting hot tire pressures. The pressure dictates the rigidity/stiffness of the side wall.
So your poor suspension guy could be chasing his tail.

Now, cold days under 15 C. Out here in Ontario, Shannonville you will loose heat. So if you go out at 70 C you will have five lap and be down around 55 C. It will level off around 45-55 C depending the rider. Calabogie the temp is 10 C and it will maintain 60 C.
So depending on your ashphalt,, if you have no warmers you start at 15 C ambient air. It is much harder for the rider with no warmers to get to 30-40 C with out warmers. So although 50-60 C is not optimal operating temp,,, it is way better and safer then 30-40 C at best.

So warmers ,, although its another thing to add to the program,,,just make things work better and are safer. Not to mention increase the life of tires.


John

John, you touched on the fact that the soft rubber tears from the hard carcass on a tire that is not heat soaked. We have alot of problems at our track with exactly this. It is a slower speed track and VERY abrasive. Soft rear tires are destroyed and some medium cannot handle the task either.
Would you speculate it is because the tire cools down even while riding and the soft compound then tears? Is there anything you would suggest to minimize or eliminate this issue?

Just as background this happens with all the tire brands, while running the "proper" tire pressures and running at expert rider pace.

[John Bickle]

John, you touched on the fact that the soft rubber tears from the hard carcass on a tire that is not heat soaked. We have alot of problems at our track with exactly this. It is a slower speed track and VERY abrasive. Soft rear tires are destroyed and some medium cannot handle the task either.
Would you speculate it is because the tire cools down even while riding and the soft compound then tears? Is there anything you would suggest to minimize or eliminate this issue?

Just as background this happens with all the tire brands, while running the "proper" tire pressures and running at expert rider pace.

Oh boy!
The corners that really build heat or maintain heat are fast sweepers that you load the carcass, or are inputting steering for some time. Stratotech looks and from what I heard [I think that might be the one we're talking about] is a track that has short hard in type corners. And yes that could happen. If you don't maintain heat the the tire will cool and scrub off rubber.
At the same time,, if you have great asphalt and hard out type corners. That's a tough combo.
What I would do or recommend is some tests with the tire and see if the temperature is really falling off. On a normal day. So get a good tire probe style pyrometer. Do some laps and see what's going on inside the tire.
I think,,speculate might be better,, you may need to play with air pressure.
I do know last year at Mirabel,which is cement, the guys that actually got the wear out of the tires were running upwards of ten pounds more then the tire reps were suggesting. Cement is very abrasive and grippy, so by adding more pressure they reduced the contact patch. This reduced the grip and the tire didn't get as hot or abused.
You guys may be in the same situation. Someone would have to do some test.But you really need the good pyrometer, not infra red.And a good tire pressure gauge with fine increments.
If you are getting incredible grip it may be more then is necessary. I would think you should be able to find a pressure that would get you the grip and increase the life.Too much pressure and you will start spinning up which may lead to hi-sides.[Warning]
I think it sounds like one of those tracks where heat is being generated but grip is so good it just shreds the tire. If the tire wasn't generating heat you would start falling or sliding.
If that is not happening I think you need to go outside the box. Tire manufacturer's spec's are for perfect world scenarios,,,, Canada we're far from that,on a good day. We run what we can.
Okay, let me ask ,"has anyone ever experimented with slightly raised pressures and did it work?"

So what I would do,, good rider with discipline,, warmers on,, hot tire pressure. Five laps measure the temp and take the pressure.Five laps measure again. Add some air repeat. You have to start with hot tire pressures simply because coming off the track it will be hot.
We need to find out if the track design is causing it to loose heat and if not then we need to possible reduce the grip with increased hot pressure.
Now,,,,Please understand I'm not telling you to not listen to what the tire mfg'ers are saying to do. Document your findings then make calculated decisions as to what might help.
And ,, I'll try not to turn this into an "info-mercial" but some warmers do not get you the heat you need. You need good insulation and or some auxiliary insulation to ensure you have heat all the way through.
The one thing I've learned with warmers,,, is all things are not equal.So the farther up the lap time chart the more this becomes apparent.

So good pyrometer, probe style,good pressure gauge, good heat in the tire,, test away.

Hope this helps,,, if not sorry. What are your thoughts?
Can someone ask me a short question

[Fireman]

To answer your question John, yes Stratotech is home for most of us on the EMRA. Very grippy, tight 2nd gear corners with about a 1:00 lap time.

-Now with the dunlops I was running about 7psi more than recommended with good wear. However I cannot use a soft compound ever without tearing.

-The Older michelin PR4's would net me about 20-30 laps before their eminant death

-Pirelli SC1's were about a 30 lap wonder as well

All the while on warmers (the last few years digital warmers set to 85 deg). I have a very goor infared gun and it has a probe addition that I can use. Should I not use the IR because it only reads surface temp? Do you recommend a particular probe brand?

I just came back from Thunderhill where I put 4 days on a set of Dunlop slicks. They look pretty amazing and are still carrying 30% of their tread left. If I could see a third of that wear here in edmonton I would be pretty happy!

Lastly, I am in the market for a new set of warmers soon. Seeing as you are the man who makes the warmers, can I buy direct from you or do I need to go through one of your retailers?

Thanks for all of the info John. It is very much appreciated.

Justin Knapik

[Acceleration Racing]

I just finished reading through the posts here relating to tire warmers and tires, thanks... it was a good read.

Justin (and other racers), I will be coming to all the Edmonton race events this year as the Pirelli tire vendor ( will not be racing :() and with a few years racing experience under my belt (not trying to toot any horns here.....), I have a fair bit of knowledge when it comes to tires and getting them to work properly. I have done my share of testing tires and may be able to lend a bit of guidance with this.

I will have all the tools neccesary trackside this year, so if you would like to do some testing and see if we can get things working good for you, just let me know. I'm here to help out as much as I can.

Feel free to contact me anytime via email or phone during respectable hours.

I'm looking forward to geting invovled with the EMRA this season.

[racer51]

Funny...Clint..."a little experience"! Sounds like it will be worth running Pirelli just to get your advice.

[Planepower]

Great thread - best info i have read in a long time.
Thanks John for posting, your wisdom is extremely appreciated, and Clint - thanks for returning with a comman brand, and im sure that your knowledge will benefit everyone.
keep posting!

[JDS]

Agree100% with Plane, great info.

Now do we draw straws to see which one of us buys the probe style pyrometer?:)

[sv-racing-parts]

:) Hi Clint, glad to see your are getting organized early for the Pirelli's this year, Are you going to have the 165 Slicks for the SV in stock? Please email me directly at b.layton@svracingparts.com and let me know where to call you,

Hi Everyone, As to Tire Warmers, I will have the Suzuka by Chicken Hawk Standards at the track at $325 all in, the Suzuka Dual temps at $375, the Woodcraft Dual temps at $390 and the Full Tilt AMA Chicken Hawk Pole Position Tire Warmers At $490 All In, at the track available for pick up this year.

I will be at every race event starting May 15 Weekend and can ship up to you earlier if you need it,

I'll have all the usual Woodcraft, Brembo, Galfer, Race Pads and Klucky Puck Knee Sliders with me as well as Chain and Sprockets if you like. Let me know your need and I will bring it with me,

Anyone who likes can email me at b.layton@svracingparts.com

See you all soon,

Enjoy the ride, and best regards,
Blair

[John Bickle]

The pyrometer I use you can get here,,
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1456/Longacre_Pyrometers
If the link doesn't work It's Longacre Racing Products and about $100US.
Some of the cheaper ones get all funcky as the battery gets low.This one seems to stay good.
When checking your hot tire pressures,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUY a pair of gloves for you wife or girlfriend! Seen too many burning their hands on the rotors!

I don't like turning info threads into info-mercials so if anybody needs pricing you can e-mail me at bickleracing@sympatico.ca

I will answer questions if you e-mail me as well,,,cause I know some of you are looking for the edge. And if I can't answer it I'll let you know.
I will say our warmers and sliders are all hand made in Canada,right here just south of Mosport Ontario.

Thanks, look forward to hearing from you
John

[John Bickle]

So,, been thinking about this,,and here's Warmer's 101. I'll try to keep it middle of the road but there will be some info-mercial in this.

Basically the warmers we can afford are wire based warmers. The negative of a wire based warmer is you get cool spots between the wire.KLS makes a carbon mat warmer [I have a set] but in fact, you still get cool spots between the mats of carbon. So If we were to use KLS as the "best" warmer product out there,, lets see what I have learned from the others.
First off the wire does not like to have bends.So on the warmers that have a zig-zag pattern across the warmer you will have reduced life. The wire is ordered,, you can order single strand to 10 strand.We use a 7 strand and I have not seen any other warmers currently made with more then 2 strands.Picture the heating wire as a thick strand of hair. The wire has a Teflon coating to keep it from bending and braking. The wire is specified to have a 1/2 inch space between it and other wire.If this is not adhered to the Teflon bakes and snaps the wire.
Now because a warmer design is forced to have a very slim profile,,, it sucks at retaining heat.In most cases most warmers loose well over 50% of their heat through the top of the tire. So it doesn't matter how you make heat if you aren't getting it to the tire. This past winter we spent days trying new products. Finally I found a very simple product that doesn't raise the cost of the warmer retail wise but is the "bomb". We actually retain more heat then we loose now. Or heat soak the tire quicker!
There are very good insulators out there like Nomex,,about $50 a set. Kevlar is much cheaper but not as good. Most use a cotton based insulation,like a Thinsulate but not nylon based as it will melt. So we in fact use two insulators, Kevlar and a fire retardant foam material.
Now back to the wire. No matter how you lay the wire a front takes about 50 feet a rear takes about 100 feet. So if I use the same wire as most do,, the front obviously will come up to temp much quicker then the rear. So you run the risk of heat shocking the front tire. Or if the front is good you,, assume the back is. Or you waste the thermostat cycles in the front as it's bouncing off it much sooner.
So we use a wire for the rear and a higher resistance wire in the front.
Now covers,,, tried the big side wall coverage but they hang up on the calipers. Tried the "green"light is good to go,,,messed up more heads on cooler days.So go rid of that.
Also, the thermostats can be ordered to fail open or close.If they fail closed and all you do is put your warmers on for 45 minutes life will be good.Should 45 minutes turn into red flag turn into lunch ,,well they just get hotter. With thermostats that fail open one day they just won't seem as hot. So, the best thermostats you can get have 100,000 cycles available. That relates to about 3-4 years in regional racing life. Nationally it's about 1.5 to 2 years. We actually design the warmer to retro fit new thermostats.[did about 6 sets this week] So if you look after your stuff and get 3 years on the original thermostats then pay $75 to $100 for new thermostats to be installed ,over 6 years+ that's not bad. We have regional racers here going on 8 years on one set of warmers,two thermostats.
The programmable warmers,, well lets say the hard part is to get the displayed temperature to represent the actual tire temperature. If the display is not even close to the tire you have and will learn nothing. Good boxes are good money.So I won't go cheap there. I remember working with Steve Dick and they were using a US based design. The tire was only 64 C and the display showed 85C. The rider was cold tearing tires like crazy.

So these are questions you need to ask. I got into making warmers because I got tired of trying to fix my XYZ warmers. Nor did they last more then 2 years. So my warmers aren't cheap,but nothing we put in them is.I could source cheaper products or go to China and buy them for $80 a set.[nightmare]
But we don't make them in a factory,,just three people make every set. Honestly,, no warmer is perfect but most of all,, how long and where does it need to go to get fixed! That is the big question. A warmer has a hard life! So being able to get it fixed at a nominal fee is the big question.


JB

[fask]

For what its worth, i run Bickles and wouldn't ever consider any other brand. On top of the best quality warmer i have ever used, it is also the most easy to have serviced... just a shipment to John's place in Ontario and they can be repaired. Can you tell me what to do with any other warmer when it stops working? How many people do you have to talk to and how much time do you have to spend doing it before you get your warmers/money back?

[sv-racing-parts]

:) Customer Service is important, often the problem stems from people buying products from discounters or auctions that are not authorized dealers,

I can tell you that I have never had a warranty issue or repair delay from Chicken Hawk, Suzuka, or Woodcraft,

In fact, even the much less expensive TyrSox has never denied me a replacement,

We pretty much live in an era where anyone who wants to stay around is going to provide warranty and repairs wherever appropriate and them some,

It's always good to have choice,

Enjoy the ride, and best regards,
Blair

[John Bickle]

For what its worth, i run Bickles and wouldn't ever consider any other brand. On top of the best quality warmer i have ever used, it is also the most easy to have serviced... just a shipment to John's place in Ontario and they can be repaired. Can you tell me what to do with any other warmer when it stops working? How many people do you have to talk to and how much time do you have to spend doing it before you get your warmers/money back?

Thank you!
Much appreciated!!!
John

[sv-racing-parts]

:) The earlier comments posted on not seeing any other warmers using more than 2 strand wire made me curious so I called David, the head and technical director at Chicken Hawk to see what they use, and what they see as the reasonable life of their products.

David tells me that Chicken Hawk has been using 7 Strand Wire in their Tire Warmer Products since 1993. That is like 17 years,

They state life expectancy of Chicken Hawk Products is 6 to 8 years, and it is not uncommon for them to see 10 year old product at the track,

So I guess the good news is Chicken Hawk and Suzuka by Chicken Hawk can be expected to deliver superb performance for years to come,

Enjoy the ride, and best regards all,
Blair

[John Bickle]

:)

David tells me that Chicken Hawk has been using 7 Strand Wire in their Tire Warmer Products since 1993. That is like 17 years,

They state life expectancy of Chicken Hawk Products is 6 to 8 years, and it is not uncommon for them to see 10 year old product at the track,

So I guess the good news is Chicken Hawk and Suzuka by Chicken Hawk can be expected to deliver superb performance for years to come,

Enjoy the ride, and best regards all,
Blair

That's awsome news,, becasue the one I have here on my table I'm trying to fix has 2 strand wire. According to the production date it's two years old. So I'll forward this post and he can talk to David direct.
The guy will be ecstatic! Must be something that slipped out!
The two sets I have from the late 90's have two strand? Of course C-H.

Blair,, I replyed to the post to try offer some information, not turn it into an infommercial.But more of an informative post. See, you even learned stuff and are now asking questions.Too which you now are much more knowledgable about the product David sells. Which it is obvious to me now, you sell.
Hey, I've used C-H and they are the reason I got into making these things. I desperatly tried to not slag anybody or any company.David is a great guy, even if he does hate my guts:p!
This is an exspensive sport,, I don't make cheap warmers,that's a fact,, but in turn all warmers "ARE NOT" the same,,that's fact!
So if it threatens you that I popped in to help some people make a educated decision,,I'm sorry.
I know what I know becasue I make them,,,I'm not the salesman,,[or well maybe I am] So I know David and good for you you're selling his stuff.
People will buy what they can afford and sometimes it's not my product.
Sometimes it will be something neither of us sell.

Good luck and have a great season!

John Bickle
Bickle Racing,,, home of the Canadian made Tire warmer and knee sliders!
One thing for sure,, we're the best made in Canada!

Have a great season guys! Be safe!

[sv-racing-parts]

:) Hi, just passing on what Chicken Hawk Tells me,

Woodcraft also says that they use 7 Strand Wire,

Lots of people use and love all of these products Chicken Hawk, Woodcraft, Bickle. Sounds to me like you all say you use 7 Strand Wire, and you all claim to have good longevity,

Enjoy the ride, and best regards,
Blair,

[racer51]

if you've got the dough.....

http://kls.de/english/tw/twmoto/stufftwmoto/frame_twmoto.htm

Pricing: www.kls.de/english/prices/prices-motos/prices-usd/price0416.htm (http://www.kls.de/english/prices/prices-motos/prices-usd/price0416.htm)

$950 USD for tire warmers!!!
(http://www.kls.de/english/prices/prices-motos/prices-usd/price0416.htm)

[vcms72]

I cant say enough good things about John Bickle and his products. We used and sold his knee sliders last summer, used and sold his Ice tire covers all winter, and we will be selling his warmers at the track this summer... I appreciate all the info that you have posted up John, your a wealth of knowledge.. And its Canadian made, what more do I need to say! Talk to you later John..

Chris

[YZF1000jon]

They come with their own warmer tech.:D Probably the new carbon element technology stuff, no wires from what I understand.

[sv-racing-parts]

:) How cool would that be, :cool:

[John Bickle]

They come with their own warmer tech.:D Probably the new carbon element technology stuff, no wires from what I understand.
I bought a set to see how they work,,it's really kind of neat/weird.
There are wires but just supply wires.So picture about a 1 inch carbon mats and maybe a centameter between the mats. Wires joining the mats. So it does actually have more connections,, but the heating surface is the 1 inch mat. So you get heat all over the 1 inch.
They really are the bomb and worth the money,, if one had the money to spend.
I actually took the bike set apart,[very carefully] the F1 set I got from the Beneton car were defective so we didn't have much mercy there. They weren"t too hard to fix either.
The F1 set was absolutely,, unbelievable! THe temperature controls were nothing,,nothing we've seen in bikes. The warmers actually had four sections.So the top of the tire was the same as the bottom.THere was a control box for each warmer,and each section .Everything fit into this carbon fiber suitcase.
It would cost thousands to make these,,,probably times some double digit!

But, nothing you have available to you today of all the other mfg'ers is close to KLS's carbon system,,, they are the top of the pyramid!!
Now did I tell you about the F1 tires and rims, and the ,,,oh my,,,,,,,,:cool::cool:
actually sat in a the real "Mcoy",, There is a guy at Shannonville that has 4 Benetons and 3 un-named cars as the team fell through.

[YZF1000jon]

I wonder how close that technology is to the new heated clothing that uses carbon mat technology. Much lighter, more heat, more even, using less power. In a couple years they may be mass produced enough to be within reach of mere mortals. You mentioned keeping heat in is as important as generating it, what kinds of insulations did you try that failed. You did mention thinsulate and a couple others, but have you ever tried that reflective "bubble" wrap type stuff under the protective layer? http://www.tradekey.com/product_view/id/204047.htm

[John Bickle]

I wonder how close that technology is to the new heated clothing that uses carbon mat technology. Much lighter, more heat, more even, using less power. In a couple years they may be mass produced enough to be within reach of mere mortals. You mentioned keeping heat in is as important as generating it, what kinds of insulations did you try that failed. You did mention thinsulate and a couple others, but have you ever tried that reflective "bubble" wrap type stuff under the protective layer? http://www.tradekey.com/product_view/id/204047.htm

Nomex is the best,, anything plastic based melts,can get ugly.
Remember you usually have the width of your finger under the front fender. So if thickness wasn"t an issue you could use all kind of stuff.