Race class solutions?

Fireman

Well-Known Member
Could we make adjustments according to popularity? obviously this season has more riders which is awesome but i think popularity in some of the classes still may not be there? maybe we could group middle weights with 112 or something, separate each class by a line. If I'm not mistaken there were some class sizes with only 5 riders out there. I know that may not make up a whole lot of time but a suggestion. Also could Int open run with Int 600? with a delayed start? The top open guys are running slower pace than the top expert guys so chances of them running into traffic might be lower, and allows the 600 guys a larger gap, and maybe a bit less experienced guys to pass if we did run into traffic?

The problem with that suggestion is that many riders do both classes so we would need to make changes like that at the AGM so people could choose classes. We do not want to make people choose between classes. All of these suggestions were looked into when we came up with this current schedule.


How many of our Intermediate riders finished in front of expert riders? How many expert riders did you and shane pass?

Looking at the times and results, we would be making raceday and rule changes to accommodate you and Shane towes. During your 600Superbike race (the longest one)Your 3rd place rider was doing times faster than 1 expert who has not been on the track at all till this weekend.

Remember that this is round 1 as well. Many of the times for riders will change by next round. And many of the really fast guys will slow down after the first crash ( I can say this because I crashed lol)
 
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teejay

Member
I feel like such a Diva lol, I do like starting in individual groups cause you know who you are racing you know what place your in, you know if you need to push it that extra little bit to stay a head or catch up. on the other hand starting by lap times would probably solve the initial problem.

I got in front of 3, and was coming up on four but once I saw that Shane got caught behind Grenier I slowed it down for 2 laps. we also had a couple guys out, Boddy, Corey, And Bayne who are equally as fast were not in the mix so who knows that could have changed the race.

And that's the reason for my concern Justin I almost shit my pants on a few occasions just to try keep up with Shane in the traffic I don't wanna crash my baby.
 

Ryno

Active Member
I almost think maintaining status quo might be the best option until after round 2 and see where the times are. There were a lot of people shaking off rust this round, and the times were surprisingly quick for round 1. One more round may give a clearer picture.
 

Fireman

Well-Known Member
I feel like such a Diva lol, I do like starting in individual groups cause you know who you are racing you know what place your in, you know if you need to push it that extra little bit to stay a head or catch up. on the other hand starting by lap times would probably solve the initial problem.

I got in front of 3, and was coming up on four but once I saw that Shane got caught behind Grenier I slowed it down for 2 laps. we also had a couple guys out, Boddy, Corey, And Bayne who are equally as fast were not in the mix so who knows that could have changed the race.

And that's the reason for my concern Justin I almost shit my pants on a few occasions just to try keep up with Shane in the traffic I don't wanna crash my baby.

Ok. What I'm understanding is that you are too fast for your grid and all but the top 3 in expert. You want to ride with riders of the same pace.

Shane Towes has agreed to being promoted. I'll call you today to discuss it. Once we have the exec meeting we can proceed from there.
 

shanet77

New Member
Hey guys, just had a read through this thread. Had a great weekend battling through the traffic I must say, it was a blast, I looked through lap tomes and I remember passing around 5 or 6 experts each split grid race. I found that it gets a little crazy knowing some of the faster intermediate guys are still be hind me, and I want to make safe passes, so at times that allows people to catch up. No matter what there are going to be experts catching the slower intermediates, there is no getting around that on split grids. HOWEVER I think to minimize the fast intermediates catching some experts, mid-season promoting is a good solution (as long as the club agrees it is the right decision)
After getting a couple winter rounds in in the states after last season EMRA rounds finished, I trust myself to ride safe with the Experts.

What I'm trying to say is this is my formal request to be put into Expert for round 2 as I am not looking for championships at this stage, I just want to get better and faster and more proficient, Justin I think you should too, it would make us better riders. Here's my reasoning; we were 18 seconds faster than the 3rd place intermediate rider after our 10 lap 600 Superbike race.

Thanks guys.

Shane Toews 141
 

Ryno

Active Member
And that's the reason for my concern Justin I almost shit my pants on a few occasions just to try keep up with Shane in the traffic I don't wanna crash my baby.

The fact you are making that statement is concerning to me. If you are quote "shitting your pants" to make a safe pass and stay with someone is a red flag in my mind. If you are making sketchy passes to stay with people then thats a problem as well.
 

teejay

Member
The fact you are making that statement is concerning to me. If you are quote "shitting your pants" to make a safe pass and stay with someone is a red flag in my mind. If you are making sketchy passes to stay with people then thats a problem as well.

That's why we are looking for solutions, I would rather not have traffic to worry about to keep up with the front runners. But as Shane stated above if we are running into 4-5 expert riders and we have the pace to do so getting stuck for even half a lap could mean a close contest or a total landslide win. Obviously making the passes safe as possible, but trying to late brake an expert into a corner 1 or 7 my ass end is all over the place hence the shit my pants, which is what racing is all about, pushing to be fast.
 

Fireman

Well-Known Member
So is it a safety concern that you have, or a concern with having to pass other riders who are in your way while someone is trying to passing you?

What will happen when your racing for 5th place with 2 other riders and the guy in front of you is holding up the pack? Because that sounds like racing to me.

If it is a legitimate safety concern and I think this very much could be, then the move to expert in order to ensure your racing with riders of the same speed is important.

I think there is a very real danger when you mix riders of very different skill and machinery levels.
 

Ryno

Active Member
That's why we are looking for solutions, I would rather not have traffic to worry about to keep up with the front runners. But as Shane stated above if we are running into 4-5 expert riders and we have the pace to do so getting stuck for even half a lap could mean a close contest or a total landslide win. Obviously making the passes safe as possible, but trying to late brake an expert into a corner 1 or 7 my ass end is all over the place hence the shit my pants, which is what racing is all about, pushing to be fast.

What i'm getting at is that is that if you felt nervous going in for a late brake pass and forcing the issue, how do you think the other guy felt. The point of black numbers imo is that you trust the other guys around you. If you are coming in mock chicken louie trying to make a late brake pass and you feel like your ass end is out of shape, how does the other guy feel? because with these proposed solutions sounds like we are going to hafta start trusting people that are making superman passes when the skill might not be there yet, despite fast lap times.. not speaking about you personally as we aren't in the same classes.
 

teejay

Member
Justin I'll give you a call here soon, I would appreciate your $0.02 on the situation and advice on how to move forward.
 

teejay

Member
What i'm getting at is that is that if you felt nervous going in for a late brake pass and forcing the issue, how do you think the other guy felt. The point of black numbers imo is that you trust the other guys around you. If you are coming in mock chicken louie trying to make a late brake pass and you feel like your ass end is out of shape, how does the other guy feel? because with these proposed solutions sounds like we are going to hafta start trusting people that are making superman passes when the skill might not be there yet, despite fast lap times.. not speaking about you personally as we aren't in the same classes.

It may just be a new sensation to me, faster lap times, harder braking, etc. I did chat to the expert guys I did pass to ensure I wasn't riding like a bean bag and all of them gave me the thumbs up for clean passes. But in general I can understand where you are coming from, I know there are guys out there maybe not necessarily myself but others where I have felt the same about a pass or riding style in general.
 

Fireman

Well-Known Member
We can sort it out for sure justin. The problem is that you and Shane are too damn fast. If you would slow down it would make organization of these events much easier lol

Talk soon
 

SetUpSixRR

EMRA Executive Member
I want to say thanks for bringing this up. This is your club and we operate it on the best ideas we can come up with, but it never hurts to hear more suggestions. We can't promise to make changes because some times they just don't work out for the majority, but it's good to have feedback.

My thoughts to try for an easy solution would be this...
Maybe increasing the delay between Intermediate & Expert grids will help with that situation. The top running experts will still catch slower intermediates and lap them in (a likely) spaced out area of the track. What I mean by that is, on lap 7 everyone is more spaced out than on lap 2. So the top running experts will still be making the same passes.

The top running intermediates will have a longer delay before catching the experts at the back. They'll still be making the same passes as well but not as early in the full 10 lap race and will therefore also be making them in a more spaced out scenario.

It seems like the simplest and easiest trial for the time being. Experts bunch up after the race start and front running intermediates have nearly smooth sailing to catch the pack. It's no surprise that they have caught up in only a lap or two. Add another 5-10s to the race start delay between grids might help a little bit without wrecking any front running experts' races.

This would be the easiest to implement and could have a half decent effect on the situation without major downfalls.

Keep in mind, with a bus stop and passing in turn 3, it will change the game again. Right now I can see it being a bad issue to have when coming up on a lapped rider into a no passing zone. But that point will be useless if we see changes from Castrol and can allow passing there.
 

Ryno

Active Member
That's a good point you brought up brian. I watch open sportbike from the turn one corner station and was surprised at how soon after the exp's lights went out that the lights came back on again for the int's. If I remember last year the int's didn't start until the exp's cleared turn 5... did the delay time get changed? or was this a glitch. In this case the exp's leaders hadn't even entered turn 5
 
Well I can speak for an expert (in classification only) getting caught up with the fast intermediates. In 600 ss it wasn't that bad but in 600 sbk it seemed like the intermediates swarmed me pretty quickly. Now some of these guys are much faster and for lack of a better term, eager to stay at the front. I had contact at least twice and a couple passes were questionable not only for my safety as well as others but the riders making the passes were not giving enough thought to their own safety with some of these decisions. Prior to the 600 sbk race I would've supported gridding everyone based on qualifying times but now I would say delay the start a little longer for the intermediates. This should give the fast intermediates a little time to sort the fast guys out at the front and not arrive so quickly at the back of the expert field. This should also make the slower experts such as myself not impact the outcome of their battles for position hopefully.
 
I should add that besides a little sketchy riding, I had a blast this weekend. Good to see some fast intermediates that hopefully all make it to expert and keep the club growing. Can't wait to get back up to the races again!
 

Fireman

Well-Known Member
Moving the intermediate grid 20 seconds back adds 3-4 more lappers into Ian Shane caravan, Mike and I.

This means a guy doing 1:30 is being passed by a guy doing 1:19s

At 10 seconds difference the closing speed is critical

I passed 5 lappers. 4 more makes 9

9 riders in danger plus 4 experts lapping them works out to half the grid. Why would putting 50% of the grid in harms way be safer than a voluntary expert promotion? Or gridding based on qualifying times?

Unless another 2 riders able to do 1:22 would change the current expert leaderboard?

With the exception of Justin and Shane, there would be no rider or time outside of the norm. Why not deal with the 2 riders vs the entire raceday and rulebook?

Shane has already stated that he would be willing to move up. Justin would like to stay to chase a championship. So 50% of the issue is taken care of already.
 
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yak

Well-Known Member
My 5 cents.

Top experts are always going to catch the folks doing 1:30s, if we delay the intermediate start they will be passing a few more racers, but each successive intermediate will be going faster and the lap time difference will be decreasing.

In the Superbike race only 3 intermediates were lapping over 1:30, after that the lap times were getting pretty close to 1:25 or less (still more than 1:19) but not at what on paper is a dangerous difference in lap times.

Others have noted that things are likely to improve a bit going forward as lap times continue drop (especially for Intermediates) so I'm inclined to believe that we should be at the tweaking stage not the big change stage.
 
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