2019 Rule Change Discussion

simpletty

Member
Would it be reasonable to extend the lightweight open to 450cc single cylinder four stroke?

Also what about a Supermoto class like they have at UtahSBA?
Minimum displacement is 125cc two stroke, or 250cc four stroke. There is no maximum displacement limitation.
Minimum wheel size shall be 16 inches. Tires must be for road/roadracing use. No knobby or dual-purpose tires shall be used[/QUOT

The jump from a 390 single to a 450 single could be as much as 16-17 hp. I don’t see any production street bikes coming out in 2019 with a 450 single, just dirt bikes. So a motard conversion of a 450 would seriously outperform anything that exsists in the class right now and in my opinion be should limited to the lightweight superbike class. I checked several other clubs rules pertaining to the "lightweights" and all i looked at stick to the 399cc twin/ 375 cc single ruling.

Example of hp on the 2019 450 singles as dynoed by dirt bike magazine:

HONDA CRF450R Peak HP: 57.51, Peak Torque: 35.13
YAMAHA YZ450F Peak HP: 55.30, Peak Torque: 33.61
KAWASAKI KX450 Peak HP: 54.34, 34.02
KTM 450SX-F Peak HP: 56.08, Peak Torque: 35.19
HUSQVARNA FC450 Peak HP: 55.43, Peak Torque: 34.46
SUZUKI RM-Z450 Peak HP: 52.53, Peak Torque: 34.06

2018 small displacement shootout tests as per cycle world
Honda CBR300R Kawasaki Ninja 400 KTM RC390 Yamaha R3

Engine: 286cc single 399cc parallel-twin 373 single 321cc parallel-twin


Measured Power: 26.7 hp @ 8300 rpm 43.3 hp @ 9900 rpm 42.5 hp @ 10250 rpm 35.1 hp @ 3600 rpm
Measured Torque: 18.0 lb.-ft. @ 6800 rpm 24.6 @ 8250 rpm 24.4 lb.-ft. @ 8300 rpm 19.6 lb.-ft. @ 9100 rpm

just my 2cents worth
 
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2quickrides

EMRA Executive Member
Would it be reasonable to extend the lightweight open to 450cc single cylinder four stroke?

The problem with constantly increasing the lightweight class engine limits is that all it does is give the trophy to those with the most money. It is designed to be a fun and cheap class, not a HP shootout.
The HP out of a motocross 450 single kills every small displacement street engine.
Even the Ninja 400 shouldn’t be allowed. Where does it end? There’s a reason the club only allows production bikes in the class as well.
 

blam

Administrator
Would it be reasonable to extend the lightweight open to 450cc single cylinder four stroke?

with all the new bikes coming out, this sounds like it would be a great idea, however, like sean said....it will quickly become a race of who has the most money to burn. it would not be fair for those that have been racing on the 300s as they will quickly be outpowered and way out of the running.
 

2quickrides

EMRA Executive Member
1. I'd like to see medical data carriers be replaced at the start of every year. They cost $5. During the incident with Sean his medical data carrier was not readable. It's not a fix all, but I think keeping medical data carriers fresh every year could go a long ways in making sure medics have the best information possible, as soon as possible, when needed.
2. I'd like to see the $50 air fence deposit increased to $100. Track set up and the time and man power needed is absolutely critical for track safety preparation. In the future this preparation time and man power will only increase. It is clear many members are simply willing to pay the fee and skip the set up time. The funds generated from this go back into track safety and future air fence maintenance/purchases. I'd like to see more funds for safety be generated from the members unwilling to help with safety preparation. I don't mean to point any fingers, just saying take a look in the mirror at what you can do for safety and lets do everything we can. Be it donate some time or donate a few extra dollars.

100% agree on both points. I did not notice a large increase is racers volunteering this year, but maybe Brian can let us know by how many deposits the club got to keep?
 

JSeal52

New Member
Would just have to figure out which other class to run it with, but could be fun!
Would it be possible to put the motard class with the formula 112 race or formula thunder? Right now formula thunder is the only group going at that time slot.
 

blam

Administrator
100% agree on both points. I did not notice a large increase is racers volunteering this year, but maybe Brian can let us know by how many deposits the club got to keep?
a lot.

we had 62 different volunteers out of a racer base of 154

to put that into persective, if the deposit was 100, we would have been able to buy 2 air fence blocks, or recover ~5 of them, solely from deposits., not including the other funds that go into the airfence fund.

it would also almost completely cover the cost of 1 race weekend to the club
 

2quickrides

EMRA Executive Member
Would it be possible to put the motard class with the formula 112 race or formula thunder? Right now formula thunder is the only group going at that time slot.

112 is already a huge race and has the Women’s Open running with it.
The speed difference between the Thunder front runners and the Motards would be crazy. But that being said, they can run with them as it is.
 

Nevets

EMRA Executive Member
112 is already a huge race and has the Women’s Open running with it.
The speed difference between the Thunder front runners and the Motards would be crazy. But that being said, they can run with them as it is.
I think Formula Thunder is a great place to run a Motard class. There are already 300s and 650s racing in Formula Thunder anyway, so adding the Motards doesn't really add any additional risk. Formula Thunder is also one of the smaller grids during the day, so a few extra Motards on the grid won't make it overly crowded.
Also, as Sean mentioned, the Motards can register for Formula Thunder if they want to regardless; if the club is willing to create an extra class for them to compete against each other, this seems like a logical place to have them race.
 

blam

Administrator
when adding classes, the emra has to consider if it will
a) reduce grid size/attendance in other classes
b) entice people to race more
c) cause back to back races
d) have enough riders to warrant having
e) when there are few riders on grid, it kills the flow of the day

as it sits, there are not many people bringing out motards. they are easily able to run multiple classes as is.

im not saying its a no to the motard class, as its not my decision, but consider the above points and you'll probably come to the conclusion there is not really enough interest at this time but i could also be completely wrong about this.
 

Julien

New Member
There aren’t people bringing motard because there isn’t a class or a championship.

It could be built in collaboration with the rocky mountain motard and attract new people.
 

jlitz

New Member
Good afternoon everyone!
Good ideas here.

Switching practice sessions; I see where you're coming from however as I've picked up my pace over the last few seasons I value quality practice more than seat time. It also costs more to go faster and the risks are greater so I think they're to left as is.

Adding a class for motards is a great idea. More fees for the club to collect and another entry point for team championship or beginer riders Intrested in starting out racing.
Safety- just thinking out loud, 1199's and such large displacement bikes create a large speed difference by the end of a straight. Can the class be a staggered start? Or staggered finish?

Staggered finish, crazy thought here but to avoid lapping or major speed differences can the motards race be a lap shorter? I realize track exit and cool down is an issue but what if they rode to bus stop and stopped on the right hand side of the track leaving room for the last lap of the faster class? Could be a nightmare logistically but just throwing out suggestions.

62 out of 154! That's crazy and unfortunate. However I am one that does not volunteer. I travel from Lethbridge (5-6 hrs each way) with my family to compete with the Emra and I simply do not have the time to give either before due to working or after due to having work the next day and packing my young family up requires my full attention. If increasing the deposit is implemented, I'd like to see something like utahsba does and offer me and others in similar situations a "tow fee" were they discount a riders fees for traveling to race with them.
Another thought. If the fee is increased and we can almost cover a race weekend, let's consider giving the folks who volunteer more incentive, such as track attack vouchers or free practice day. This may help increase numbers as volunteering adds more value than the deposit back.

- novice racers
I think the rule book needs to be changed from allowing novices to enter lightweight and women's classes before completing their mandatory 4 races. Torrin Collins as maybe the exception this year but otherwise I believe all riders should have to "earn their stripes" before being able to register for intermediate classes. Reasoning, the front runners on these little bikes are quite good and lapping extremely inexperienced, slow and inconsistent riders is a daunting task at times.

- warm up laps
This isn't exactly a rule change so maybe better posted elsewhere, but having been in some of the largest grids I think we need a mandate of whats going to happen on a warm up lap. There was way to many times this season that someone was just out for a Sunday drive on the warm up lap. I realize there are different techniques riders employ like up and down braking, stretching or exaggerating movements to get the suit outta your crack. What ever it might be, I found that at times it was the most dangerous lap of the race. Riders at the front of the pack waiting to enter should not be fu**ing the dog on there way onto a hot track. Little cc bikes should also maybe refrain from the front unless their pace dictates they be there.
- related problem I have is during practice sessions, maybe I'm the incorrect one but I've come around the checkered flag during practice sessions to see riders with visors up, hands on their hips and cruising along on the race line. If I only get a few laps that session, I will continue practicing thru turn 3-10,11 where I prepare to exit the track. Please correct me if I'm to be off the gas when I see the checkered in turn 2. Thanks.

- Castrol, again not a rule change but related to the agm.
Something needs to happen as we already know. We pay them something like $50k and don't seem to get very good value from them. The bathroom we're supposed to get isn't done, my daughter just about fell into the big hole in the ground that they didn't bother to rope of or exercise any caution, women's bathroom tap was broken the entire 2017 season.
Someone should be employed by castrol concerned about safety and well being of their clients which as far as I can tell if another track is built they won't have many road course clients

Thanks for reading my rant. Have a good weekend all!
 

blam

Administrator
62 out of 154! That's crazy and unfortunate. However I am one that does not volunteer. I travel from Lethbridge (5-6 hrs each way) with my family to compete with the Emra and I simply do not have the time to give either before due to working or after due to having work the next day and packing my young family up requires my full attention. If increasing the deposit is implemented, I'd like to see something like utahsba does and offer me and others in similar situations a "tow fee" were they discount a riders fees for traveling to race with them.
Another thought. If the fee is increased and we can almost cover a race weekend, let's consider giving the folks who volunteer more incentive, such as track attack vouchers or free practice day. This may help increase numbers as volunteering adds more value than the deposit back.
we do not feel we need to give incentives for the racers to help with the club - imho, it is a racer's duty to help with this. we are pretty generous as is with airfence set up and tear down. other clubs make it mandatory for novices for example. I do understand some people travel to race - but keep in mind, air fence is not the only way to help out if you want your deposit back. we always struggle to get a full crew for set up and teardown. if we had a complete full crew, it would take no time at all.


Staggered finish, crazy thought here but to avoid lapping or major speed differences can the motards race be a lap shorter? I realize track exit and cool down is an issue but what if they rode to bus stop and stopped on the right hand side of the track leaving room for the last lap of the faster class? Could be a nightmare logistically but just throwing out suggestions.
fortunately, the tower is manned by our amazing volunteers, unfortunately, they may not know the riders or bikes very well - this takes a lot of time and patience, and the volunteers are not always consistent for attendence. it would be a nightmare trying to do this without flagging the wrong people. what if there is a lapper? you cant flag both riders for a checker.
 

DEFBOY35

Well-Known Member
And unless we are under a red flag having any riders stopping anywhere off track is an absolute hazard.
As for the tow fee offered in Utah that has only been for their perimeter round I believe for out of state riders. And only the first x amount to claim it.
One could volunteer to help out on the track attack on the Friday nights of a race weekend. Especially easy on a double header if you were already in town for practice.
 

Cinder

Active Member
We need to revamp the race schedule ( we have the same since Startotech ) It will be good to see change... I'm taking the race schedule from UtahSBA as an example...practice in morning and race in pm both days and important qualification just before lunch when it getting hotter. Doing race in AM at 5-10 degrees is not fun & safe.

Novice should stay novice for a whole year so they can acquire skills they need and been more safe-4 race isn't enough. And it would keep the Intermediate class of been jam pack with 10-20 more novice steeping up. The Expert class is ( sorry to say that ) getting boring having only 6 racers on the expert superbike race...you need to promote more intermediate to expert class... been expert doesn't necessarily means been fast ( i believe your criteria of promotions is based on lap time ) it means being able to pass, getting pass and being safe.

I have friends that refuses to come to the track because the facility is dirty, inadequate washroom ( especially for women's ) brown suspicious matter on walls and the spectator stands are not the greatest to view race... would be nice to have one on the west side.

and last but not least... no more fake promises from Castrol about track layout, walls improvement & safety... need to be fixed
 

blam

Administrator
We need to revamp the race schedule ( we have the same since Startotech ) It will be good to see change... I'm taking the race schedule from UtahSBA as an example...practice in morning and race in pm both days and important qualification just before lunch when it getting hotter. Doing race in AM at 5-10 degrees is not fun & safe.

Novice should stay novice for a whole year so they can acquire skills they need and been more safe-4 race isn't enough. And it would keep the Intermediate class of been jam pack with 10-20 more novice steeping up. The Expert class is ( sorry to say that ) getting boring having only 6 racers on the expert superbike race...you need to promote more intermediate to expert class... been expert doesn't necessarily means been fast ( i believe your criteria of promotions is based on lap time ) it means being able to pass, getting pass and being safe.

I have friends that refuses to come to the track because the facility is dirty, inadequate washroom ( especially for women's ) brown suspicious matter on walls and the spectator stands are not the greatest to view race... would be nice to have one on the west side.

and last but not least... no more fake promises from Castrol about track layout, walls improvement & safety... need to be fixed
The emra has no control over how castrol operates.... We c an give our feedback but at the end of the day we can't make them do anything.

We can't run a qualifying schedule like Utah. It is far too much work to update grids the way they do it.

Expert promos are based on more than lap times.
 

DEFBOY35

Well-Known Member
We need to revamp the race schedule ( we have the same since Startotech ) It will be good to see change... I'm taking the race schedule from UtahSBA as an example...practice in morning and race in pm both days and important qualification just before lunch when it getting hotter. Doing race in AM at 5-10 degrees is not fun & safe.

Novice should stay novice for a whole year so they can acquire skills they need and been more safe-4 race isn't enough. And it would keep the Intermediate class of been jam pack with 10-20 more novice steeping up. The Expert class is ( sorry to say that ) getting boring having only 6 racers on the expert superbike race...you need to promote more intermediate to expert class... been expert doesn't necessarily means been fast ( i believe your criteria of promotions is based on lap time ) it means being able to pass, getting pass and being safe.

I have friends that refuses to come to the track because the facility is dirty, inadequate washroom ( especially for women's ) brown suspicious matter on walls and the spectator stands are not the greatest to view race... would be nice to have one on the west side.

and last but not least... no more fake promises from Castrol about track layout, walls improvement & safety... need to be fixed
You need to come to the agm's more often dom. The schedule considerations have been discussed atleast the past two years.
The problem is we don't have the luxury of provided corner marshals etc. we rely on a volunteer force (who we all love and appreciate) and the logistics of switching between practice and race has been the downfall thus far.

I'd like to point out that novices completing 4 races is not an automatic in being advanced to intermediate. But the end goal is to not keep people in novice.
The next issue in regards to expert is that we need more promoted riders to stick around after being promoted. Too many pack it in after a year or two. I'd like to see the expert grids larger as well.

As for the remainder that are more complaints about the facilities. That is for another thread as they have nothing to do with rules. And are things that the Emra has brought up many times and are pretty much at the mercy of Castrol completing them.
 

Nick_C

New Member
I don't have any standing re: voting or membership, but wondered if I might attend the AGM as an observer?

Would be useful as a volunteer to see what the primary concerns of the racers and executive are, and how we can make things go smoothly on race day.
 
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