Endurance Race 2011

Discussion in 'Open Forum' started by twidders, Feb 21, 2011.

  1. nac.00

    nac.00 EMRA Executive Member Staff Member

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    Good suggestions...Seeing all the effort put forth in the suggestions show that there is deff a need for something to change. I agree with Justin, that making restrictions on bikes is probably not the best since some it isnt exactly a cake walk getting a bike to use.
    My two concerns are stacked teams and costs.
     
  2. oldskool

    oldskool Active Member

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    I like the idea of a 'lottery' for who makes up a team, however I doubt you will get a lot of bikes open for strangers and such to ride. Who knows??

    I think a lottery for the grid position of the fast25(if it happens) would be ideal aswell. Why start the fastest guys at the front when there can be that much more action and drama with 'chomp at the bit' racers pulling crazy maneuvers to get to the front before the 'lucky guy' gets too far away. Much better for spectators aswell(which is most likely what I'll be).
     
  3. nac.00

    nac.00 EMRA Executive Member Staff Member

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    very good points. I would be all for reverse grid in the fast 25
     
  4. Fireman

    Fireman Well-Known Member

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    The point of qualifying is to get the best time possible in order to get the best grid position possible. Reversing it would mean everyone is just shooting for the 25th fastest time.
     
  5. oldskool

    oldskool Active Member

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    Agreed, no point in guys 'trying' to go slow for a better grid posistion, but you can't argue with a staggered grid (lottery) being more fun for ~ 80% of the participants and the fans/spectators. I don't want to watch the 700 lap veterans do the same race we've watched a hundred times over. Not that there wouldn't be some fast rookies and even the odd novice potentially gridding near the front.

    We can save the qualifying for the wcc double headers can't we? Let's make this fast 25 more fun, less serious, and better for the crowd. If not, then what the hell, let's award points and hand out a plastic trophy at the end of the year.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  6. yak

    yak Well-Known Member

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    I'm confused: in the context of a race what is wrong with the fastest individual or team winning?

    There is a long summer ahead to get in practice time and to line up potential team mates. Why not target improving instead of hoping a lottery or an arbitrary rule system will lead to a good result?

    The point of this thread is to get input on what the club could do to improve the turnout for the endurance race and I know one of the key rules of brainstorming is that there are "no bad ideas", but I don't understand the direction some of the posts are taking.

    Personally in my first endurance race I was excited to get my team's fastest lap at 1:09. (Wow!) We had a good time and not too surprisingly we didn't win. Was I satisfied with going that slow? No, but with some practice I have managed to get a bit faster. Is Royce worrying that I'm going to steal his ride? No, but I plan on getting closer to the front of the grid this year.

    My 2 cents.
     
  7. Sharik

    Sharik New Member

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    My opinion, the toughest thing about the Endurance Race currently was not getting enough riders or the cost, it was finding a bike which someone would allow to be thrashed for several hours by different, unfamilar racers (some bikes have race gear shift patterns, some have street patterns, etc.).

    To get around this, in South Africa what they do is, Endurance Teams were created. Each team must have an Expert, an Intermediate and a Novice rider. (they have different names for the classes, but..). Only one Expert could be in a team but there could be as many Intermediates and Novices as desired but at least one of each of these two classes. Each Team member would ride their own bike.

    In the hot pits, the Teams were assigned one pit stall. There could be no bikes in the stall until it was time to switch rider. Then the new rider would go to the hot pit, motor running and wait for the other rider to come in from the track. The track rider would come into the pits, stop in the Team pit, slap the other rider on the back and the new rider would exit onto the track for his stint. There would be Pit Officials in the pits to monitor to ensure the exchange was done corrrectly. They would also radio to the lap counters/time keepers of the Team replacement. Finally, they would monitor the pits and would notify the Team when it was safe for the rider who had just come in, to exit the hot pits back to the cold pit area.

    As the race progressed, especially in the later stages, the Race Officials would monitor the laps completed by each Team member and notify the Teams if there was an inbalance. The intent was that each Team Member would put in close to the same number of laps/track time. If someone crashed or their bike was otherwise expired, that Team member would be removed from the Team and the remaining Team riders would adjust their upcoming track time/laps accordingly to maintain the new balance.

    This was good fun and a lot of strategy was involved: when do you put the fastest riders onto the track (in the beginning to try and build a lead early, save them for later?) how long would each stint be (short and fast or longer), etc.

    Anyway, I hope you guys have a good race season in 2011. Wish I was there. But on a more positive note, it is sunny and 35C here in Angola today. Tchau

    Rick Peterson
     
  8. Backmarker

    Backmarker Member

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    There are some good posts here but I havent read a solution really. I think there are a couple of things that keep turn out low. One is the cost at the end of the year, the other is the date which we do it. Ususally the day after rd#6 and guys are tired. On the other side though, I think if you ever tried it, you will realize it is one of the funnest races you will ever enter! I was hesitant at first but decided to do it and it will hook you. I've rode on 2 "other" bikes and used mine last year. I think people are always going to want to pick the riders on their team especially when your using your own bike. If I had to pick one thing I think the minimum should be 3 riders and not 2. It's harder to get 3 ringers vrs 2 but I'm not complaining as winning is not everything here. Sure it's nice to get a little cash and offset some expenses but for me, its the funnest race of the year.
     
  9. oldskool

    oldskool Active Member

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    I'm not concerned in the least how I finish, I also don't have that awesome 'spirit' of racing where I will hold up a faster rider by blocking so I could finish 1 position ahead. What is boring and gay is waching the same thing unfold in every expert race last year and the year before. I wasn't racing expert, thus I am speaking from a spectators standpoint. Do you really think I am hoping to get a lottery ticket so I can start at the front (and stay there and win...LOL) or end up with Royce and Pete on my endurance team? Hell no, I'm pissed that you think that's what it is about.

    We have enough events/classes during the rounds where the mucho bravado, all star, one track masters can show there pure awesomeness, why can't we make the endurance race or the fast25 a little less about how awesome half us narrcissistic, ego fueled racers really are? and a little more fun for the 'majority' and the SPECTATORS.
     
  10. Planepower

    Planepower Active Member

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    I'm sensing alot of angst in a few of these posts. Personally I do agree that competing against top ranked expert class riders a bit dis-heartening. Forking out a huge entry fee plus tires and fuel to finish out of cash payout sucks. I thoroughly enjoyed my first endurance road race, and it was both an eye opener and learning experience. Financially and personally I did not pursue last years race. Whatever formula that has been used in the past isn't working.
    Think Todd, in ice racing if there were only 1 class and the Sydor boys were in it. They kick ass! With ice racing, the entry fee is cheap, and the racing is 6hrs, and there are different classes (2 of which you competed in). And Scott did amazing! (pretty much solo'd it - I believe he deserves first overall). Mind you it is a series and points accumulate. We don't have that luxury for road race endurance. Sometimes competitive spirit (the best wins) should be set aside for entertainment. I don't think I've noticed much in spectator turnout at the endurance race. With only 4 or 5 teams it's monotonous.
    I do hope someone deciphers all the ideas and a happy medium is found. Even if it's just a small entry fee and a small payout. I'm sure the club can afford to 'lose' money on this event (we are after all a non-profit society).

    I bring up ice racing due to the fact, it's a great atmosphere, excellent camaraderie, and competitive spirit. And if size doesnt matter for EMRA why isn't there a under 600cc riding out there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  11. Fireman

    Fireman Well-Known Member

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    I would also like to see 25 monkeys on minibikes juggling fireworks added to the race. This would take away from the fast guys just going fast, and having a "real show" for the fans. We could also look into adding a alligator to the infield, thus discouraging mid field crashes and severely penalizing those with badly prepped bikes? :D


    So far, what I am reading, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the members would like to see a reduced cost, at the expense of the payouts. that way the race becomes more about fun and less about winning money.

    It is also suggested that teams may need to consist of only one expert rider or will need to have at least one intermediate rider

    Adding landmines between the start line and corner 2 will make the race more fun to watch, and thus less like a real race.
     
  12. oldskool

    oldskool Active Member

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    As long as the monkeys are throwing poo, it's all good.


    I will resign from my 'let's just try to have fun' campaign.

    BTW when you don't have any 'real' arguments, just insert asinine bullshit like fireman!........it works aparently.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2011
  13. Sterling

    Sterling Member

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    My 2 cents. I think the main thing that keeps me from considering the endurance race is the horrifying thought of wadding up somebody else's race bike. Second would be the thought of someone else wrecking mine.

    The post by our friend in Angola brought up an interesting thought. What about teams of riders and their own bikes? Individuals could ride their own bikes in different legs and the total team times added up to determine the winner. I mean, what are we trying to prove by everyone riding one bike, strange to all but one team member? Are we testing the engineering abilities of the bike builders? Grading the manufacturers on their abilities to survive the punishment? No, of course not. This is a club, not the FIA (or is it FBI :) ).

    Really haven't put much thought into that one, just an idea.
     
  14. nac.00

    nac.00 EMRA Executive Member Staff Member

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    I kinda like that... I think everyone would prefer to ride their own bike.
     
  15. Backmarker

    Backmarker Member

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    Doesn't this now mean you have possibly 3 bikes to put tires on? I'm not sure this would ever work. That and the fact that pit road is crowded now without tripling the bike count in each pit. Endurance racing to my knowledge is always done with a single bike. The rider changes and fueling are all part of the experience.

    Now, when I have done the race, we always have an agreement. In the event of a mishap we share the cost of repairs 3 ways :) No issues there as there hasn't been any wadding done. The race is more about tire management and not throwing up in your helmet lol.
     
  16. emiliopeev

    emiliopeev Member

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    I participated in the 2010 endurance race with Steve as the only red numbered team. Overall we had a ton of fun and the track time proved invaluable.

    I agree with the others who say reduce the registration fees and get rid of the cash payouts. I think the event should be based on just having fun and bragging rights. Racing for a pot takes away from the fun aspect as many riders mentalities change when money is involved. If there are prizes( im thinking donated gift cards, parts, etc.) they should be awarded in 2 groups.

    I look forward to doing the 2011 endurance race should some of these changes be made. If not ill just go do the mini-bike endurance which costs me significantly less to run.
     
  17. Sterling

    Sterling Member

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    I'd think that each bike would only travel 1/3 the total distance. Would that require a tire change?
     
  18. YZF1000jon

    YZF1000jon Well-Known Member

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    One bike doing the race doesn't require a tire change anymore (we could make it longer to include tire strategy again). One bike per rider turns it into a team style sprint race, as fuel and rider strategy becomes far less important, this isn't the spirit of an endurance race.
     
  19. Acceleration Racing

    Acceleration Racing Member

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    handicaped Endurance race rule structure

    Hey Guys - There are lots of great ideas flying around here, its good to see so many people actually care about endurance racing.

    A few years ago I was racing with the ARL out at Atlantic Motorsport Park in Shubenacadie, Nova Scotia and they put on an endurance race like I had never seen before. It was super exciting right to the final lap and I beleive the team that won consisted of back of the pack pro riders running an old FZR400.
    I'll try the best I can to recall the rule structure:
    • A Handicaped Race
    • Race could be 4 hours or 225 laps whichever came first (based on average lap time of 1:04).
    • Riders will be grouped and started according to their best lap time within the team, of the current 2011 season. Riders/teams not posting a time throughout the year will be grouped in the last group.
    • groups will be divided as per the following lap times (min):
    • 1:20+ They start when green flag drops.
    • 1:15-1:20 They start 5 min after green flag
    • 1:10-1:15 They start 10 min after green flag
    • 1:05-1:10 They start 15 min after green flag
    • 1:00-1:05 They start 20 min after green flag
    • > 1:00 They start 25 min after green flag
    I have not done the math to figure this all out correctly but it gives everyone a general idea of what it would be like. The main goal is to figure out the handicap times (start advantage) so that after 4 hrs (length of race) all teams would be on the same lap.

    As the race progresses, theoreticlly the faster teams are supposed to be able to make up the number of laps the slower teams have put in from being allowed to start earlier......and hopefully it comes down to the final lap or minunte of the race when all teams should be on the same # of laps, assuming everyone had the exact same time in the pits.
    By doing it this way, it does not matter if the faster riders team up, every team has the chance to win regardless of skill and every team should get roughly the same amount of laps, some just take longer to do those said laps.
    I did not enter the endurance race out at ARL, but I can say as a spectator it made for one exciting finish...... watching the faster bike trying as hard as he could to catch the slower rider on the last lap after 2 hrs. It was awesome. He didn't catch him :(.
    If this was something the club wanted to look at a little further I can contact Terry Steeves at ARL and get the exact rules and timing structure.

    As for the cost to do the endurance race, I don't have alot of suggestions for that. If the rules are changed so everyone has a somewhat equal chance of winning (based on Handicap), would more people entertain the idea of doing it......? Who knows. All I know is that I will do it again - I love endurance racing! and beleive it or not I don't even care if I win, as long as I can go have fun backing it in :)!
    How about we have a prize for whoever backs it into turn 1 the best? It could be highly entertaining for spectators :eek:.
     
  20. fonzy

    fonzy Active Member

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    steve

    watching you blow by me on a r6 and backing into turn 2 was my highlight of the endurance race:)
     

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