Backmarker
Member
I don't think anyone is being anal really. Jusy trying to improve things so it makes the volunteers jobs easier. I agree 100% on legibility being a more realistic target.
Bike Race Numbers
- Thread starter jetfixer15
- Start date
I don't think anyone is being anal really. Jusy trying to improve things so it makes the volunteers jobs easier. I agree 100% on legibility being a more realistic target.
Fireman
Well-Known Member
There are rules in place for this. Making numbers big enough for the tower workers to read is important and will be enforced through tech.
If your bike does not meet the requirements outlined in the rulebook you will not be allowed onto the racetrack until it has been fixed.
These are the rules. They are in place for a reason. Arguing about it is just silly.
If your bike does not meet the requirements outlined in the rulebook you will not be allowed onto the racetrack until it has been fixed.
These are the rules. They are in place for a reason. Arguing about it is just silly.
Planepower
Active Member
Isnt this the reason of this thread topic to discuss rules and change them?
Isnt this the purpose of a membership to discuss and propose rules, or is it an executive only area - if so, then whatever YOU say goes.
Isnt this the purpose of a membership to discuss and propose rules, or is it an executive only area - if so, then whatever YOU say goes.
Fireman
Well-Known Member
Heiko, you now me better than that. My Point is that there are rules in place that make our club work properly. Discussing the rules on the forum is fantastic. Name calling is not discussion however.
Their are still number plates on MotoGP, WSB, and AMA bikes even though they have smaller fairings as well. They are large enough for scoring. http://www.nofenders.net/uploaded_images/Ben-Spies---Yamaha-R1-736610.jpg
But if you do not like the current working of the rules and would like a change, please take a active role in doing so.
Their are still number plates on MotoGP, WSB, and AMA bikes even though they have smaller fairings as well. They are large enough for scoring. http://www.nofenders.net/uploaded_images/Ben-Spies---Yamaha-R1-736610.jpg
But if you do not like the current working of the rules and would like a change, please take a active role in doing so.
Planepower
Active Member
Im sorry, i did not mean to name call...
Your post seemed rather matter-of-factly...as in discussion finished.
in the end, it does come down to an active membership, and if a small percentage of the membership participate, then the rules are addressed appropriately.
Ive spent may years in various postions in club llevel executive committees - the internet and forums are a great way to get input from people you rarely hear from (better than monthly newsletters and meeting minutes).
The only point i was trying to make is 'legibilty'..and if that means artistic interpretation, then rules as stated MUST be followed. 8 inches are the standard, then 7 3/4" are out. Do we want to burden tech inspectors to tape measures and long drawn out checksheets? (belive me i know what checksheets are - aviation is full of them, and i can generate enough paperwork to drown an auditor).
rant over...
No disrespect intended
Your post seemed rather matter-of-factly...as in discussion finished.
in the end, it does come down to an active membership, and if a small percentage of the membership participate, then the rules are addressed appropriately.
Ive spent may years in various postions in club llevel executive committees - the internet and forums are a great way to get input from people you rarely hear from (better than monthly newsletters and meeting minutes).
The only point i was trying to make is 'legibilty'..and if that means artistic interpretation, then rules as stated MUST be followed. 8 inches are the standard, then 7 3/4" are out. Do we want to burden tech inspectors to tape measures and long drawn out checksheets? (belive me i know what checksheets are - aviation is full of them, and i can generate enough paperwork to drown an auditor).
rant over...
No disrespect intended
Fireman
Well-Known Member
The rule book is matter of fact. There is room for interpretation but it is clear and to the point. Really, how many people have actually been told to change thier number sizes?
The club has been around since before you or I were racing with it. The club rulebooks that were used to develop the EMRA's were around before that.
We aren't changing the world here with this discussion. It has been talked about many times before. And what we have is the result of all of those conversations.
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Planepower
Active Member
Ack! - ive made myself look like an idiot (hoof in mouth syndrome)
Fireman
Well-Known Member
Not at all. Like you said, discussion on the subject is good as long as it is focused. My problem is that I have ADHD when I try and discuss anything on a internet forum.
Now with that said, I like the way that alot of the WSB teams are putting the numbers on the bellypan and a single large number on the tail section. It is large enough to read from the tower on the tail and can be seen at lean angle (or on it's side) by the corner workers.
Now with that said, I like the way that alot of the WSB teams are putting the numbers on the bellypan and a single large number on the tail section. It is large enough to read from the tower on the tail and can be seen at lean angle (or on it's side) by the corner workers.
That being said. Are #'s like you had on the triple still be acceptable, providing they're the right size? Also, are #'s required on both sides of the tail section?
Apparently enough to start this thread?
~S
Fireman
Well-Known Member
If you read the original post Scott, you will notice it was started by someone concerned about the size, not someone who was told to change the size.
If your tail section is to small to accomidate a number of proper proportions, then the single number is the only choice, however to date I think thet there are only 2-3 bikes that are competeing that would require something like this.
For example my triple from 07-08. It had a TINY tailsection and those numbers were deemed appropriate in size for Mission and in Edmonton. In Mission you will be required to have a white background for your numbers however.
Are you having troubles fitting numbers on the GSXR scott? If this is a really big concern lets deal with it as a club. Draw up a proposal on what you think would be appropriate for number size/font/and placement, with safety, and volunteers in mind. You can post it here, send it to me, or Ian. We will hand it over to the group of people looking at the 2010 rulebook changes.
If your tail section is to small to accomidate a number of proper proportions, then the single number is the only choice, however to date I think thet there are only 2-3 bikes that are competeing that would require something like this.
For example my triple from 07-08. It had a TINY tailsection and those numbers were deemed appropriate in size for Mission and in Edmonton. In Mission you will be required to have a white background for your numbers however.
Are you having troubles fitting numbers on the GSXR scott? If this is a really big concern lets deal with it as a club. Draw up a proposal on what you think would be appropriate for number size/font/and placement, with safety, and volunteers in mind. You can post it here, send it to me, or Ian. We will hand it over to the group of people looking at the 2010 rulebook changes.
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I have and did read the first post... I'm still waiting for answers, if there available.
Above is the main question i would like to get answered. I really don't care about the number sizes. As a GSXR could probably put 12" numbers if needed.
Reason I'm asking about your old Triumph is that bike never really had a white background, as the bike was/is black. You just had a white surround showing your number. I think it looks slick and fit the "visibility" status quite well.
I am hoping to emulate that on my bike for next season. Only in red for my intermediate status. I'd like to know if this will still be accepted, or if the numbers have to be on a number plate? Hence why I've singled out your old bike.
As for the back, I should have read the rules before asking the question. Again I was asking the question for style points, thats it. I have no problems putting numbers on both sides.
I do apologize for my original first post. i was coming across as quite a brash; must of been a off evg. Sorry.
~S
Fireman
Well-Known Member
No Problem Scott. I have never had, nor have I heard of any problems in the EMRA with a 1" white border around the number. Let common sense be your guide. If it looks like it will be difficult to see at 100' and 100MPH, it probably is and thus someone will be forced to ask you to change it before you can compete.
Now once again, if you choose to race in another club, the white background will be necessary to pass tech.
Here is what I am currently using and it is acceptable in the EMRA, CMRA, & WMRC.
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YZF1000jon
Well-Known Member
The first post of this thread quotes the rulebook and shows that a 1" white border is acceptable. Personally I think it makes the numbers jump out more than a white background, but either way is good as long as it's readable from the tower or corners.
Fireman
Well-Known Member
I have never found that it was any worse than a white background either, However other clubs make it mandatory to ave the background.
So remember folks, if you plan on doing any of the WCC rounds, keep the white background or you will need to buy some white duct tape and make a background ala 2008 >>>>
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Just to throw in my usually worthless $.02.
Tech made mention of inappropriate numbering on several occasions to riders with hastily applied colored duct tape numbers or red electrical tape numbers, but we never forbade them from going on the track, we would just warn them that if we got a complaint from the tower about their numbers, they WOULD have to change them. Those complaints did come too, on several occasions, and Jon would radio down and ask us to give the offending rider a heads up. It was a system that seemed to work for us at the time, but enforcing a minimum standard would be infinitely more plausable if we had a vendor on site that actually carried the appropriate numbers (in both black and red) instead of just shrugging our shoulders when asked where to get the correct style numbers. This is a great discussion and it has given rise to another question in my head. I know that the expert bikes require black numbers, but in some cases the numbers were painted on in a color matching the dark color of the bike (IE dark blue) to get more style points from the West German judge I'm sure. Would it be a no-go situation for that scenario?
As for the Tech 'checklist'? I think it would be a good idea as a reminder of what will be checked at Tech, but if it is expected that the Tech marshals will carry a checklist around each bike on a Saturday morning when there are bikes lined up down the paddock, I don't anticipate this as being helpful to the cause. On the other hand, having a billboard about 2ft wide by 4ft tall that could be displayed in a conspicuous place under the tent (on the fence maybe?) would be a good way to re-enforce our requests for further maintenance on the bike. It simply makes the rules interpretations more black and white and there would be less questioning of the request (they don't make us do that for a WERA race!). But after doing a couple hundred inspections, there would be no need for a checklist for the inspectors. My method and the method I taught Dave was to start at a point on the bike and do a lap around it, in my case I would start at the right side of the front wheel and work backwards around the bike and back up the left side to the front again. It quickly becomes routine and in my case I would physically touch the more important items as a way of ticking it off on my mental checklist. Even in cases where the bike didn't pass Tech because of some issue that was overlooked, we would make a judgement call on whether we required the bike to return for a re-tech or just leave it to the rider to fix the problem on an honor basis (which I would usually end up checking anyways when they went out for first practice hehe) and our judgement was usually swayed by the level of preparation (let's face it, it's easy to see which bike was prepped maticulously and which was tossed together over a case of beer) and the perceived honesty of the rider.
As for the kill switch issue, I think it is a good idea to mandate a check. I know it could be seen as an inconveniance by the GP riders who need to do more than push a button to start the bike, but if I'm a corner worker running towards a downed rider and his bike is peeing out fuel with a stuck throttle singing along at about 12k, I think I might find it convenient to be able to hit a kill switch that has been tested.
Just my $.02
On another note, I have seen and heard many thanks for the volunteers and the work they put in, but the thanks need to be expressed in both directions. It has been my experience that 99% or more of the riders and their pit crews have been more than pleasant and cheerful to deal with and in most cases they were genuinely thankful when we pointed out something that was missed in the preparation because these checks are done to ensure the safety of both them and their fellow racers. I was also very impressed when they would just stand quietly beside their 'steeds' waiting for us to muck our way through the dozen or so riders ahead of them and I would also like to thank those folks for their amazing patience.
This is also a good time to publicly thank people like Dave Sushynski and Juan and Everett and Norm and Justin and a select few others whose names escape me at the moment (at my age, I'm usually more happy to remember anything than I am dissappointed for forgetting something). If it weren't for their generosity with their time and their helpful nature, heaven knows I'd probably still be standing under that tent slogging through inspections. MUCH thanks to everyone for making our life pleasant and it is because of people like you that it is easy to raise the hand when volunteers are called for.
Tech made mention of inappropriate numbering on several occasions to riders with hastily applied colored duct tape numbers or red electrical tape numbers, but we never forbade them from going on the track, we would just warn them that if we got a complaint from the tower about their numbers, they WOULD have to change them. Those complaints did come too, on several occasions, and Jon would radio down and ask us to give the offending rider a heads up. It was a system that seemed to work for us at the time, but enforcing a minimum standard would be infinitely more plausable if we had a vendor on site that actually carried the appropriate numbers (in both black and red) instead of just shrugging our shoulders when asked where to get the correct style numbers. This is a great discussion and it has given rise to another question in my head. I know that the expert bikes require black numbers, but in some cases the numbers were painted on in a color matching the dark color of the bike (IE dark blue) to get more style points from the West German judge I'm sure. Would it be a no-go situation for that scenario?
As for the Tech 'checklist'? I think it would be a good idea as a reminder of what will be checked at Tech, but if it is expected that the Tech marshals will carry a checklist around each bike on a Saturday morning when there are bikes lined up down the paddock, I don't anticipate this as being helpful to the cause. On the other hand, having a billboard about 2ft wide by 4ft tall that could be displayed in a conspicuous place under the tent (on the fence maybe?) would be a good way to re-enforce our requests for further maintenance on the bike. It simply makes the rules interpretations more black and white and there would be less questioning of the request (they don't make us do that for a WERA race!). But after doing a couple hundred inspections, there would be no need for a checklist for the inspectors. My method and the method I taught Dave was to start at a point on the bike and do a lap around it, in my case I would start at the right side of the front wheel and work backwards around the bike and back up the left side to the front again. It quickly becomes routine and in my case I would physically touch the more important items as a way of ticking it off on my mental checklist. Even in cases where the bike didn't pass Tech because of some issue that was overlooked, we would make a judgement call on whether we required the bike to return for a re-tech or just leave it to the rider to fix the problem on an honor basis (which I would usually end up checking anyways when they went out for first practice hehe) and our judgement was usually swayed by the level of preparation (let's face it, it's easy to see which bike was prepped maticulously and which was tossed together over a case of beer) and the perceived honesty of the rider.
As for the kill switch issue, I think it is a good idea to mandate a check. I know it could be seen as an inconveniance by the GP riders who need to do more than push a button to start the bike, but if I'm a corner worker running towards a downed rider and his bike is peeing out fuel with a stuck throttle singing along at about 12k, I think I might find it convenient to be able to hit a kill switch that has been tested.
Just my $.02
On another note, I have seen and heard many thanks for the volunteers and the work they put in, but the thanks need to be expressed in both directions. It has been my experience that 99% or more of the riders and their pit crews have been more than pleasant and cheerful to deal with and in most cases they were genuinely thankful when we pointed out something that was missed in the preparation because these checks are done to ensure the safety of both them and their fellow racers. I was also very impressed when they would just stand quietly beside their 'steeds' waiting for us to muck our way through the dozen or so riders ahead of them and I would also like to thank those folks for their amazing patience.
This is also a good time to publicly thank people like Dave Sushynski and Juan and Everett and Norm and Justin and a select few others whose names escape me at the moment (at my age, I'm usually more happy to remember anything than I am dissappointed for forgetting something). If it weren't for their generosity with their time and their helpful nature, heaven knows I'd probably still be standing under that tent slogging through inspections. MUCH thanks to everyone for making our life pleasant and it is because of people like you that it is easy to raise the hand when volunteers are called for.
YZF1000jon
Well-Known Member
The checklist would printed up on the back of the registration sheet the riders are given and the inspector just ticks off the appropriate category as it's checked. It's more of a liability and consistency thing, as if something happens there's a paper trail showing due diligence. That, and the riders get a heads up on what exactly will be scrutinized, and what needs to be fixed before being allowed onto the track. This way we can also have people like Juan and Norm step in and still have the same tech requirements. This will be important, from what I hear you're throwing your name on the Grid this year, and Dave's no longer with us, so new inspectors will have to be trained.
I will still be around to help out with the early morning rush on every weekend, I just won't be able to babysit the tent all day like before. Yes, I would like to try life on the other side of the wall for a bit, but I will need somebody to teach me the "Anti-gravel dance" before I venture out. haha