2014 EMRA Rule Changes

[macbayne]

i would like to see a second 600 race, or perhaps a 750 race. a 600 can be competitive underneath a competent rider against 750s, and a 750 can be competitive against a 1k with a competent rider (with maybe a bit of modifications). this gives us wimps on 600s two races in which to be competitive, and it gives a guy with a 750 two races to be competitive (actually 3 with open sportbike). make the 750 class open up to twins of 1000cc (you are welcome, ryan) so it includes most any machine that isn't a 1200 cc twin or 1000cc I4.

i also propose some sort of engine restrictions on novice. whether it is a minimum displacement or maximum displacement or combination. i foresee a ridiculous speed disparity and dangerous situation.

what are the plans for the fast 25? will it simply be fast 25 or be divided into 2 sub-classes?

i have a solid "no" for anything to do with blue flags. it is simply unfeasible given the amount of required coordination between tower and corner and will only lead to confusion. i don't think that we had any problems with lapped riders this year did we?

finally, we could run an open race for any displacement with the only rule: no front brakes. we could open a betting pool for who makes it out of turn one. it could be an excellent fundraiser...

 

[DEFBOY35]

perhaps another option to the air fence setup/take down instead of a deposit, which most certainly some people would bitch about, would be to perhaps reward those that helped with say 10-15$ discount per round helped off of the next years 300$ membership fee? if that is feasible financially for the club.
the deposit was more along the lines of the money coming back to you for helping and not affecting the financials. there must be a reason in the first place the fees have to go up to what they are to begin with

 

[fast316]

what are the plans for the fast 25? will it simply be fast 25 or be divided into 2 sub-classes?

i have a solid "no" for anything to do with blue flags. it is simply unfeasible given the amount of required coordination between tower and corner and will only lead to confusion. i don't think that we had any problems with lapped riders this year did we?

Fast 25 was a successful class last year. It is an 'open' class. Open to the fastest 25 riders on any bike that enter it, only restriction being a novice licensed rider can not enter. What part of that would be divided?

As for blue flag, it is a simple flag that is only used when needed. It won't effect the vast majority of the racing. Since we are about to start racing on a much large track, where closing speeds and lapped traffic could pose a much larger risk on the track this flag would be used to warn riders of this. EMRA is one of the only clubs that doesn't have a blue flag. I think if you had gone to Castrol and seen how effective and easily implemented the blue flag was at some of the car racing that has taken place there you would change your mind.

 

[Dave86]

As far as setup and tear down goes, we could do something similar to what the CMRA did. A list of riders is posted in advance of the round, one for setup and one for tear down. If you don't show up, you're at the back of the grid for your races.

 

[sand.man]

As far as setup and tear down goes, we could do something similar to what the CMRA did. A list of riders is posted in advance of the round, one for setup and one for tear down. If you don't show up, you're at the back of the grid for your races.

That's pretty much exactly what I was talking to my teammates about... We draw names at riders meeting for attendance, why not draw a few more and make that the tear down crew, and the set up crew for next round or something. (Assuming that setup will be done before riders meeting)

 

[Goatse]

other than Jon and his pretty wheels, is there really anyone running more than a supersport qualifying machine in SS?

for the first roundof practice go with the 1 2 3 4 groupings, if you were this group at strat you are that group at castrol, until some sort of baseline numbers are put down to see where the cut offs should be.

That's why I was saying the 600SS should have tighter rules, and I agree with calling it Superstock. Right now you're allowed to change out fork internals, rear shock, and have up to 640cc's of displacement. If we had a 600cc Superbike race, then a near stock 600SS race would make more sense.


As for practice times. What if somebody didn't race at Strato when we had the 4 groups, but now wants to race? I think at least initially the 3 groups like we used to do would work. Then when we know the times guys are running, we could change things up. It's not like it was a huge change to get used to last year when it was implemented.

 

[Goatse]

As far as setup and tear down goes, we could do something similar to what the CMRA did. A list of riders is posted in advance of the round, one for setup and one for tear down. If you don't show up, you're at the back of the grid for your races.

I like that.

i would like to see a second 600 race, or perhaps a 750 race. a 600 can be competitive underneath a competent rider against 750s, and a 750 can be competitive against a 1k with a competent rider (with maybe a bit of modifications). this gives us wimps on 600s two races in which to be competitive, and it gives a guy with a 750 two races to be competitive (actually 3 with open sportbike). make the 750 class open up to twins of 1000cc (you are welcome, ryan) so it includes most any machine that isn't a 1200 cc twin or 1000cc I4.

i also propose some sort of engine restrictions on novice. whether it is a minimum displacement or maximum displacement or combination. i foresee a ridiculous speed disparity and dangerous situation.

what are the plans for the fast 25? will it simply be fast 25 or be divided into 2 sub-classes?

i have a solid "no" for anything to do with blue flags. it is simply unfeasible given the amount of required coordination between tower and corner and will only lead to confusion. i don't think that we had any problems with lapped riders this year did we?

finally, we could run an open race for any displacement with the only rule: no front brakes. we could open a betting pool for who makes it out of turn one. it could be an excellent fundraiser...

I was trying to wrap my head around the reasoning of the first 4 paragraphs, but then after reading the 5th I saw that your post is just joking around.

Haha, you're such a joker, Bayne.

 

[DEFBOY35]

That's why I was saying the 600SS should have tighter rules, and I agree with calling it Superstock. Right now you're allowed to change out fork internals, rear shock, and have up to 640cc's of displacement. If we had a 600cc Superbike race, then a near stock 600SS race would make more sense.


As for practice times. What if somebody didn't race at Strato when we had the 4 groups, but now wants to race? I think at least initially the 3 groups like we used to do would work. Then when we know the times guys are running, we could change things up. It's not like it was a huge change to get used to last year when it was implemented.

ok, so eliminating a 600 race for quite a few of the riders who have upgraded suspension and just replacing it with a sbk version. i think that is going against the reasoning of adding the 600sbk race to begin with. (all the reasoning above was to make another class in which 600's were against 600's not 1000's) I dont think trying to force more stock bikes to run a superstock , therefore eliminating the widely run supersport class is the answer. just because most people choose to run a supersport spec bike in the sbk class instead of doing full ohlins forks, with a massive built motor running bst wheels and modified swingarms

now does it mean that everyone must run dot's in ss and then decide whether to run dots or slicks in the other races. sure the tire vendors would be in love with that enforcement, or possibly not as well. how far do we want to take it, do we all have to run the same tires as a true ss class would, which of course would have to be pirelli's (scott le me know when i can pick up my free tires for the plug!!!!)

in regards to the practice, somebody new that has never been on the track before, and has never raced against any of the riders here before(which would give a rough idea of where they may belong) perhaps the first session or two should be in group 4(or 1,lol, which way did the order go again) if they are deemed faster, then they move up a group. pretty straight forward and i imagine similar to how it would have been done this year if someone new to the track had shown up. might be a better to have a exec clarify how that situation would have happened. really though this for the most part should only affect the first round or two.

just if the rider is in a slower group than they should be, inform them that next session they should be in the next higher group, dont implement a 1 session penalty as was the case this year.

 

[Goatse]

ok, so eliminating a 600 race for quite a few of the riders who have upgraded suspension and just replacing it with a sbk version. i think that is going against the reasoning of adding the 600sbk race to begin with. (all the reasoning above was to make another class in which 600's were against 600's not 1000's) I dont think trying to force more stock bikes to run a superstock , therefore eliminating the widely run supersport class is the answer. just because most people choose to run a supersport spec bike in the sbk class instead of doing full ohlins forks, with a massive built motor running bst wheels and modified swingarms

So pretty well what you're implying is to just have 2 similar races but with different lap amounts? Because the current rules allow pretty heavy modifications from a club racer level standpoint. A guy could have full Ohlins cartridge style fork upgrades, rear shock, and a built 636. IMO those are the types of mods for Superbike.

I do agree maybe we could do without the suspension changes, but I don't see a problem at all making anything bigger than 600cc ineligible for 600SS.

 

[DEFBOY35]

As far as setup and tear down goes, we could do something similar to what the CMRA did. A list of riders is posted in advance of the round, one for setup and one for tear down. If you don't show up, you're at the back of the grid for your races.

this works as well. biggest thing is to figure out how many people its going to take to do set up in a timely fashion, have a few extra to cover the possibility somebody bails (either skipping out, or incase someone crashes and has a excusable reason to miss out)
figure out that number and have it that everybody works the same number of rounds. and if a rider is only going to make 2 rounds and they know, they should step up and ask to volunteer that round

 

[DEFBOY35]

So pretty well what you're implying is to just have 2 similar races but with different lap amounts? Because the current rules allow pretty heavy modifications from a club racer level standpoint. A guy could have full Ohlins cartridge style fork upgrades, rear shock, and a built 636. IMO those are the types of mods for Superbike.

I do agree maybe we could do without the suspension changes, but I don't see a problem at all making anything bigger than 600cc ineligible for 600SS.

that is entirely up to the individual if they want to mod there bike or a second bike beyond the ss level to have a advantage in sbk, swap to the super sweet lightest wheels money can buy or have a motor built with +4 pistons and turbo .

curious as to how many people are on kawi 636's that would no longer be eligible to race a class due to that change though? its eliminating a class that is raced world wide, and i imagine the rules are fairly standard across the board.

i guess another question that can be asked is, how many guys plan on running 600's vs 1000's next season. 600SS being one of the biggest draws for grid size, sbk is already a small grid being mixed. would more of the 600 guys participate if it is separated to 600sbk and sbk, or is it the, i dont want to do the longer race, that holds guys back. because there seems to be decent numbers in the open sportbike grid, which as it sits is essentially a short sbk race

 

[Goatse]

I forgot about the cheater Kawis. Make the rule that it must be OEM displacement then, and include the factory 636's. Easy enough.

And you can't compare grid turn out from Strato to Castrol. If the liter bikes have the advantage that we think they will, then I'm sure after a few rounds of racing against them, guys wouldn't be as inclined to enter the race again. Like Justin touched on, a whole revamp to the class structure will need to be looked at. Guys wont be able to pick races based on our previous track, because the track is completely different.

It'd be nice if some of the Calgary guys (or someone familiar with their rulebook) would speak up with some suggestions.

 

[macbayne]

Fast 25 was a successful class last year. It is an 'open' class. Open to the fastest 25 riders on any bike that enter it, only restriction being a novice licensed rider can not enter. What part of that would be divided?

As for blue flag, it is a simple flag that is only used when needed. It won't effect the vast majority of the racing. Since we are about to start racing on a much large track, where closing speeds and lapped traffic could pose a much larger risk on the track this flag would be used to warn riders of this. EMRA is one of the only clubs that doesn't have a blue flag. I think if you had gone to Castrol and seen how effective and easily implemented the blue flag was at some of the car racing that has taken place there you would change your mind.

my question for fast 25 was WRT payout, basically. i think that many 600s would enter at castrol simply because it would turn into their own race as the pack would split into groups. it seems a bit off that you would charge everyone $20 and only 50% of the field would have a chance for the payout.

my point about the blue flag is that it adds MORE responsibility and confusion to the cornerworkers' plates. given that we need more cornerworkers and that it is the same half dozen guys who consistently show up, you may be throwing too much on someone's plate. if we can recruit more consistently attending corner workers (on top of the half dozen guys who show up rain or shine) then i am all for it.

As far as setup and tear down goes, we could do something similar to what the CMRA did. A list of riders is posted in advance of the round, one for setup and one for tear down. If you don't show up, you're at the back of the grid for your races.

genius

I was trying to wrap my head around the reasoning of the first 4 paragraphs, but then after reading the 5th I saw that your post is just joking around.

Haha, you're such a joker, Bayne.

i was completely serious for the first 4 paragraphs. making a 600 SStock and a 600 SBK (that was painful to type) is not as effective as making a 750 SS-type race. simply doubling 600 races but making minute distinctions between them does not make sense. do not bar someone from half the 600 races because he has an elka rear shock. my point was that the disparity between a 750 and a 600 is still manageable for a track like castrol, and the introduction for the new class would open doors for some people who may want to race an 848/899 or something. now take that guy/gal on the 848, and maybe they would like to enter the races open for the litre bikes.

now you have brought a new group of displacements into the fold, giving the wimps on 600s another race, and adding more variety of choice of stallion.

some people may call be biased (i truly am not, i was going to race a 675 in 2013) but the gsxr 750 is very common and with the interchangeability with the 600, it is an untapped resource for picking up salvages for racebikes.

 

[DEFBOY35]

i completely agree that yes, it is going to be a whole different animal with the track change, and truly we wont know until we get out there.

my point on who plans to run 600's vs 1000's though was to see if there is currently a lot of racers thinking, hey bigger track, time to move up to the litre. (i know you and i discussed it a little even) and also to see, how many guys chose not to do sbk due to either the 600 vs 1000(which would be far more drastic at castrol) or if it was more that they did not want to do the longer duration race.
the 600 vs 1000 guys, if choosing to stay 600, may do the sbk if split to the 600sbk and sbk
where as if it was mostly just the , i dont want to do the long race guys, it may just shrink the grids even more for sbk, unless a bunch of the 600 guys doing sbk already are swapping to 1000's.
i personally like the thought of a competitive sbk race for 600 guys, to me the qualifying part as well as the longer duration race are the real challenges to it.
one thought i have though, does that make changes to how the wcc is in regards to classes. will 600sbk be recognized and run in mission? cmra in the future? because those track layouts down south look fair sized as well, if we are planning on making things line up with the other clubs. or will we need to abandon the 600sbk race for the wcc rounds to run the sbk in order to make an attempt at points?

 

[Schramm]

Why not just run 2 600SS races? The classing system could be simplified and doubled I think. Run a couple 600, 650 twin, 750 and 1000 races, then the specialty ones of course like SM, GP and 250. There's always going to be the guys that can afford to dump money into their bikes to go a little faster, but running a super complicated system to remedy that at the club level seems a little inane.

 

[DEFBOY35]

my question for fast 25 was WRT payout, basically. i think that many 600s would enter at castrol simply because it would turn into their own race as the pack would split into groups. it seems a bit off that you would charge everyone $20 and only 50% of the field would have a chance for the payout.

my point about the blue flag is that it adds MORE responsibility and confusion to the cornerworkers' plates. given that we need more cornerworkers and that it is the same half dozen guys who consistently show up, you may be throwing too much on someone's plate. if we can recruit more consistently attending corner workers (on top of the half dozen guys who show up rain or shine) then i am all for it.



genius



i was completely serious for the first 4 paragraphs. making a 600 SStock and a 600 SBK (that was painful to type) is not as effective as making a 750 SS-type race. simply doubling 600 races but making minute distinctions between them does not make sense. do not bar someone from half the 600 races because he has an elka rear shock. my point was that the disparity between a 750 and a 600 is still manageable for a track like castrol, and the introduction for the new class would open doors for some people who may want to race an 848/899 or something. now take that guy/gal on the 848, and maybe they would like to enter the races open for the litre bikes.

now you have brought a new group of displacements into the fold, giving the wimps on 600s another race, and adding more variety of choice of stallion.

some people may call be biased (i truly am not, i was going to race a 675 in 2013) but the gsxr 750 is very common and with the interchangeability with the 600, it is an untapped resource for picking up salvages for racebikes.

yes but 750's dont finish races. sorry bayne had to! hope to see you out there on a 675
and we decided that to go with superstock we are bringing back horns to self regulate the blue flag with a simple meep meep

 

[DEFBOY35]

ok, how about 600ss as is
sbk as is, but put the middle class in call it 750sbk or whatever(think it should stick with sbk moniker if same length and qualifying as per sbk) heck call it sbk jr lol run up to 750 inline, so a 600 with skill should keep up decently etc, allow the 848to run this class, no ryan , fat apes still run sbk ha
and of course the above questions in regards to the effects on wcc

 

[macbayne]

yes but 750's dont finish races. sorry bayne had to! hope to see you out there on a 675
and we decided that to go with superstock we are bringing back horns to self regulate the blue flag with a simple meep meep

no offence taken, i race a 600. besides, i am the fastest to the red flag every time.

 

[fast316]

That reminds me.

If we did have a 600 specific Superbike Race, then it'd make more sense to have tighter (or even enforce the current ones more) rules in 600SS. That would make the Superbike race make more 'sense' by separating the 2 a bit more.

Sounds like someone is volunteering to tech everyones bike next year?

I'd be more than happy with the only difference between 600ss and 600sbk being the number of laps. No one is going to build a bike for only 600SBK and a bike for only 600SS.

Saying your 600SS bike can't compete against a 600SBK bike with modified forks tubes is silly. 600SS rules, the way they are, IMO, provide a fairly level playing field for the large number of riders that ride 600s. This is made clear by the healthy grid sizes and tight finishes that took place in all the 600ss races this year. 600SBK would be another race for that large group of competitive riders to get out on the track.

Lets not get too carried away with the fine print that divides supersport, superbike and superstock.

Just so everyone knows here are the current rules for 600ss and Superbike...

Sportbike:

Classes:


600 SS: 640cc or less (twins up to 750cc, triples up to 680cc, singles Open)

Open sport bike: Open displacement



Sportbike racing class machines must be standard models as catalogued by the original equipment manufacturers and sold to the general public in Canada or U.S.A. for street use and available from all of their authorized dealers.


Motard style bikes are also eligible for this class within their respective classes.

Tires–DOT or slicks



Front Suspension must use the original front forks both inner and outer tubes. Fork internals may be modified.


Rear Suspension must retain the original swing arm and the swing arm must be left unchanged. The rear shock linkage may be substituted. The rear shock may be modified or replaced.


The original frame must be retained. Unnecessary brackets may be removed.


Engine modifications are unlimited except for the following


Stock cases, barrels, cylinder heads and throttle bodies must be used but may be altered.


Stock carb bodies or fuel injection systems must be used but carb internals; velocity stacks and injection management systems may be altered or replaced


After market exhaust systems may be used, but must meet course mandated noise restrictions.


Clutch actuation may be modified to a racing kit type.


Dry clutches are only permitted if used on the stock motorcycle.


Stock air box is not required but an air box is required. An air filter is not required. Larger air boxes may be used but the stock tank and tank placement/mounts must be used. Ram air systems, including ducts and scoops, must be identical in spec to the OE fitment.

Engine capacity must fall within class size as follows. There are no horsepower limits for these classes.


Superbike
Superbike is open to any motorcycle type.
Tires
DOT or slicks.
Unlimited modifications

 

[Goatse]

Sounds like someone is volunteering to tech everyones bike next year?

I'd be more than happy with the only difference between 600ss and 600sbk being the number of laps. No one is going to build a bike for only 600SBK and a bike for only 600SS.

Saying your 600SS bike can't compete against a 600SBK bike with modified forks tubes is silly. 600SS rules, the way they are, IMO, provide a fairly level playing field for the large number of riders that ride 600s. This is made clear by the healthy grid sizes and tight finishes that took place in all the 600ss races this year. 600SBK would be another race for that large group of competitive riders to get out on the track.

I do agree, and that's why I said stock suspension might be taking it too far (Plus I'll probably impulse buy at least a shock this winter). But with the whole 600 vs 1000 thing being more apparent, a built 600 vs stock 600 will be more apparent as well.

I'm on a Yamaha so I wont have to worry about being slow anyway. But you Honda boys will have your hands full since you're bikes are already handicapped as it is. I'm just looking out for you guys. Plus, I don't want to keep hearing the excuses that the only reason I'm keeping up is because my bike is stronger.